New Race-Ready Civic Type R TC

CivilciviC

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Someone mentioned on here about having a turbo’d integra back in the day that they could hoon around the track without overheating issues. I’ve owned some EG civics in the past, along with friends who’ve owned DC, DB integras- I’m pretty familiar with the platform (EG/DC being the same, DB being a bit different), though it has been about a decade since I’ve owned one.

Anyway, neither the EG nor the DC integras have much room for cooling, upfront. They don’t have an upper grill, just a lower opening and it likely is smaller than the FK8 openings up front, in total. So what gives?!

A couple things came to mind- one thing, neither the EG or the DC have under body trays, shielding the engine bay. Those of you track your Rs, did you remove the oil drain panel? Yes, hot air travels up, but I wonder if the wind flowing under the car can help siphon some of the hot air in the engine bay?

The other thing is the DC/EG engine bays had a bit more open room surrounding the engine itself, then the CTR does. This too might help with reducing some of that hot air. Both of these items though, seem like they’d make only marginal improvements in heat management.

Then I started looking at the engine- and that’s where I think the major issues come in. Comparing a K20C1 to any other K20A, and you see how much thicker the engine walls are. It seems the engine itself might be the biggest issue for heat management. I took these photos from 4 Piston, and my god... what a difference. This is just looking at the heads, side by side:

upload_2019-12-14_10-31-42.jpeg


upload_2019-12-14_10-32-16.jpeg


The coolant channels in the head seem slightly smaller than the K20A versions too (though that might just be my eyes playing tricks on me :p). That, and the K20C pulls in about 55% of the air flow that the old K20A does (according to 4piston, 158cfm vs 300cfm). I wonder if all that combines for overheating issues. The head walls themselves look to be twice as thick!

The final thing I see is the single port exhaust, as opposed to the four holes the K20A has. They do this for cost savings, easier turbo mounting, better emissions control and apparently the single channel port has a water jacket around it, to help control temps. But if the coolant is super hot, it likely isn’t helping matters. And at least in my mind, it seems the four ports leading to a turbo could help manage temps a little better than the single port. They might not work well for emissions, but for engine temps???

I’ll admit, I’m no engine guru and folks on here could likely school me a bit on engine design and what not, but yeah... the thing that made me think of this is when I read someone was tracking their CTR with no hood, and the improvements in cooling were minimal at best. Soooo who’s gonna swap in a built K20A into their 40k CTR now, for track purposes? (Jokes!)



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d15b7

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hey guys. i can have some decent input on this subject. I've owned and raced a 95 EG since 1997. at the time in the beginning it was a combo track and street car. in 1999 it became a pure racecar (Honda Challenge H1) with a B series in it. in 2004 I put a bone stock K20A2 in it and raced it Honda Challenge til 2007. at that time I put a small Greddy t517z turbo (330 whp) on it for a few years. up til that time, zero overheating issues on track. eventually blew that stock motor with the Greddy turbo on it up at a TV show called 'are you faster than a redneck'. then I semi retired the car. about 2 yrs ago I brought it out of retirement and put a built K24 bottom end in it (forged rods and pistons 9.5 to 1) and a built K20A head (valves dual springs retainers Type R cams RBC intake manifold) and a BW EFR7163 turbo with 'sidewinder' Full Race T4 exhaust manifold big intercooler etc etc all the goodies. on 15psi it made an easy 450whp on a heart breaker dyno. it can be turned up to 23psi (but its not!). because -- even with a full size aluminum rad and a huge fluidyne oil cooler and the grill insert cut out and the rad faired in, and the rear of the hood spaced up 3/4" it still overheats when its over 80 deg ambient and I'm asking it to perform. i don't turn it up because even at 450-460whp it will overheat after 2-3 laps when its over 85 deg (esp at big tracks like VIR or Watkins etc). she's fast -- 2:01 at VIR full course last year (the USR CTR did a 2:07 that same day) but her achillies heel is the overheating. it would make well over 600whp if I turned it up but I bet it would overheat SUPER fast so I haven't tried.

so, ya -- stuffing a very highly stressed turbo motor into a small engine bay and turning it up causes overheating problems, no matter what the car. who knew? LOL! :)
seriously though - overheating is definitely a thing when you are trying to ask so much out of a small engine combined with trying to make the car slippery and fuel efficient aerowise (such as our CTRs are).

PS - my EG is one that some of you guys might recognize; its the 'OG' Fortune Auto Civic; white/blue/green. full underbody tray from splitter to diffuser. don't know if that's hurting the overheating but I wouldn't be surprised.
PPS the K24/K20A motor family is one of the best if not the best that Honda ever made. or will make again. the stock port design and flow characteristics of the K20A head is AMAZING. that's why they make so much power. unfortunately the flow ability of the stock CTR motor will never be even close. I guess with a massive amount of headwork and changing it over from a turbo-on-head design to a full race manifold design you might be able to approach the old K20A head performance. but even then I'm not sure.
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JESFromASC

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Someone mentioned on here about having a turbo’d integra back in the day that they could hoon around the track without overheating issues. I’ve owned some EG civics in the past, along with friends who’ve owned DC, DB integras- I’m pretty familiar with the platform (EG/DC being the same, DB being a bit different), though it has been about a decade since I’ve owned one.

Anyway, neither the EG nor the DC integras have much room for cooling, upfront. They don’t have an upper grill, just a lower opening and it likely is smaller than the FK8 openings up front, in total. So what gives?!

A couple things came to mind- one thing, neither the EG or the DC have under body trays, shielding the engine bay. Those of you track your Rs, did you remove the oil drain panel? Yes, hot air travels up, but I wonder if the wind flowing under the car can help siphon some of the hot air in the engine bay?

The other thing is the DC/EG engine bays had a bit more open room surrounding the engine itself, then the CTR does. This too might help with reducing some of that hot air. Both of these items though, seem like they’d make only marginal improvements in heat management.

Then I started looking at the engine- and that’s where I think the major issues come in. Comparing a K20C1 to any other K20A, and you see how much thicker the engine walls are. It seems the engine itself might be the biggest issue for heat management. I took these photos from 4 Piston, and my god... what a difference. This is just looking at the heads, side by side:

upload_2019-12-14_10-31-42.jpeg


upload_2019-12-14_10-32-16.jpeg


The coolant channels in the head seem slightly smaller than the K20A versions too (though that might just be my eyes playing tricks on me :p). That, and the K20C pulls in about 55% of the air flow that the old K20A does (according to 4piston, 158cfm vs 300cfm). I wonder if all that combines for overheating issues. The head walls themselves look to be twice as thick!

The final thing I see is the single port exhaust, as opposed to the four holes the K20A has. They do this for cost savings, easier turbo mounting, better emissions control and apparently the single channel port has a water jacket around it, to help control temps. But if the coolant is super hot, it likely isn’t helping matters. And at least in my mind, it seems the four ports leading to a turbo could help manage temps a little better than the single port. They might not work well for emissions, but for engine temps???

I’ll admit, I’m no engine guru and folks on here could likely school me a bit on engine design and what not, but yeah... the thing that made me think of this is when I read someone was tracking their CTR with no hood, and the improvements in cooling were minimal at best. Soooo who’s gonna swap in a built K20A into their 40k CTR now, for track purposes? (Jokes!)
OK even allowing that you are western Canada... and hence might have some time on your hands this time of year...
Did you just happen to have these two built heads sitting on your desk?
Or did you have to run out in the garage and pull down two engines?
I'm not sure if I should be in complete awe or horrified?
Great pics by the way...
;-)
 

remc86007

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OK even allowing that you are western Canada... and hence might have some time on your hands this time of year...
Did you just happen to have these two built heads sitting on your desk?
Or did you have to run out in the garage and pull down two engines?
I'm not sure if I should be in complete awe or horrified?
Great pics by the way...
;-)
He said he took them from 4 Piston...
 

Cornercarver

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Id be interested in seeing a comparible chart to the differences between this and a stock ctr, including prices.
$ 38 K vs $ 80 K. So yeah, a bit more for the racer...
 

CivilciviC

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I think it's more for actual sponsored race teams, not a weekend racer. Not surprising, to be honest. Racing is an expensive game to play!
 

incinerator

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$172k? This is for the richer ultra enthusiast.
Yeahhhhh no. This is specifically for race teams competing in the TC category. You can't buy one unless you're a member of Honda Racing Line, which would automatically make you more than just an enthusiast.

Besides, wrong car. That's the price for the Type R TCR, which has been around for about a year already. This thread is about the new $90k Type R TC. Neither can be registered for street use.
 

various cheeses

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So here's something interesting to note: They have 18x9.5 wheels on the TC, and 18x10s on the TCR. Now we just need to figure out the offsets.
 

billabongrob

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Forgestar will make you just about any offset you’d like, in case anyone hadn’t heard of them. I’ve used them in the past, and while their finishes haven’t always been 100%, the quality of the wheels is top notch.
 

Evolution999

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Havent seen much about tuned si's overheating. Upgrade the rods and swap engines, problem solved?
 

alpinefd

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is there info on the suspension spec they are running?
 

TypeSiR

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is there info on the suspension spec they are running?
It's in the article on the first post:

https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-a...ext-level-with-new-race-ready-civic-type-r-tc

  • Front dual axis MacPherson strut, multi-link rear
  • HPD/Bilstein inverted double adjustable dampers
  • Eibach race springs
  • HPD front camber and caster plates
  • HPD/SPC rear camber adjustment
  • HPD/RV6 rear adjustable stabilizer bar
  • Spherical suspension bushings and damper mounts
  • Upgraded HPD/RV6 rear lower arms for race spring rates and positive toe adjustment
  • Forgestar F14 cast aluminum wheels, 18 x 9.5 in.
 

alpinefd

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I'm curious to know what camber, toe, and spring rate they are running.

I've heard the older SI race cars run astronomically high spring rate in the back, it appears they are doing the same with the type-r, with the super beefy rear lower arm.
 

                           

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