New camo'd Civic Sedan?! This is a 6MT 1.5T prototype we drove today

[dick w]

Go ahead and mock me all you want, but the car industry is now grappling with how on earth they will possibly meet the new federal reqs and still provide the kind of choices, performance and features consumers want.

They've been grappling with it since the first emission or economy reg came out. And we have more powerful and faster cars today than ever before. They will predict the sky will fall. It won't.

(Edit: also add most fully featured, safest and most fuel efficient.)

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[Shralper]

They've been grappling with it since the first emission or economy reg came out. And we have more powerful and faster cars today than ever before. They will predict the sky will fall. It won't.

It took 40 years and billions of dollars in R&D for car companies to overcome the very first CAFE rules and put out the same HP and torque of the 60's muscle cars. Do you really believe there is some infinite amount of energy that can be extracted from a gallon of fuel? That would defy physics.

There's nowhere else to go now but smaller, lighter, tiny turbos, hybrids and EVs. More harsh reality from the Ford CEO. http://m.wardsauto.com/industry/ford-s-fields-says-ready-discuss-cafe-rules

 

[dick w]

Compare and contrast the 1972 pre-CAFE CVCC Civic and the 2016 Civic--by any measure of automotive goodness you want. And compare, say, the power and torque of a Veyron SS with your mythic 1960's muscle car. (Heck, compare the 1.5T Civic to your mythic '60s muscle car.) There has been a steady march of both regulation and technology to meet that regulation over that time. It wasn't just regs issued in '75, billion$ of investment later, regs met in 2016.

Will new technology be required? Sure. Might the days of gasoline be numbered? Maybe, but I'm betting the last kid to buy a new gasoline car hasn't been born yet. Are today's gasoline automobiles still very inefficient thermally? Yup. Are the automakers going to have to invest? Yup. Are they going to build that investment into the prices they charge? Yup.

The automakers are going to cry a river about any regulations. Always have. Always will. Think of it as lobbying to avoid investment. It's just how the system works.

 

[10GCivicSi_Vs_5GPrelude]

Compare and contrast the 1972 pre-CAFE CVCC Civic and the 2016 Civic--by any measure of automotive goodness you want. And compare, say, the power and torque of a Veyron SS with your mythic 1960's muscle car. (Heck, compare the 1.5T Civic to your mythic '60s muscle car.) There has been a steady march of both regulation and technology to meet that regulation over that time. It wasn't just regs issued in '75, billion$ of investment later, regs met in 2016.

Will new technology be required? Sure. Might the days of gasoline be numbered? Maybe, but I'm betting the last kid to buy a new gasoline car hasn't been born yet. Are today's gasoline automobiles still very inefficient thermally? Yup. Are the automakers going to have to invest? Yup. Are they going to build that investment into the prices they charge? Yup.

The automakers are going to cry a river about any regulations. Always have. Always will. Think of it as lobbying to avoid investment. It's just how the system works.

You might be overlooking something important, and that is the quality of the driving experience. You may be assuming that today's driving experience is better in every way but I can assure you it's not. I for one can not stand the Honda Sensing nonsense and if I'm unable to turn it off I probably won't buy the car.... But that's not where it ends. Increasingly cars are coming equipped with an automatic stop-start feature that will turn your engine off when you come to a stop then turn it on again when you hit the gas. I for one will never drive a car with this "feature", and the fact that I now need to actively avoid this makes car shopping a much more limited activity for me. There will come a point where the joy of driving will have been extinguished due to features like this that exist for no reason other than to meet CAFE regulations, even to the extent of causing more actual waste (example for stop/start you'll be wearing out battery & ignition system,creating higher emissions on restart,etc) than savings. Let's encourage all driving enthusiasts to not only slow but hopefully reverse this tide of idiocy that is overtaking the automobile industry.

 

[dick w]

You might be overlooking something important, and that is the quality of the driving experience. You may be assuming that today's driving experience is better in every way but I can assure you it's not. I for one can not stand the Honda Sensing nonsense and if I'm unable to turn it off I probably won't buy the car.... But that's not where it ends. Increasingly cars are coming equipped with an automatic stop-start feature that will turn your engine off when you come to a stop then turn it on again when you hit the gas. I for one will never drive a car with this "feature", and the fact that I now need to actively avoid this makes car shopping a much more limited activity for me. There will come a point where the joy of driving will have been extinguished due to features like this that exist for no reason other than to meet CAFE regulations, even to the extent of causing more actual waste (example for stop/start you'll be wearing out battery & ignition system,creating higher emissions on restart,etc) than savings. Let's encourage all driving enthusiasts to not only slow but hopefully reverse this tide of idiocy that is overtaking the automobile industry.

You are mixing a lot of off-topic gripes in with the liberty-depriving and impossible-to-meet CAFE regs.

The first car I bought was a '78 Ford Fiesta "Sport" with power nothing and a 4 speed manual. Didn't own an automatic until 2000. Have owned an SLK230 (5M) and an 135i (8AT--best transmission I ever drove). Rode in a friend's E-Type V12 once. Owned a half share of a '71 MG Midget with a missing 3rd gear for a while. I get the driving experience thing. Have a '16 Civic Touring on order, so, obviously, I have no hangups about autonomous safety systems. And I suspect as they get further developed and come down in price they will become mandated safety systems--most everything else that has demonstrated a safety benefit ultimately has.* (Even some crap that hasn't has.) I've drive (but never owned) Start/Stop cars. They aren't, from what I can see/read, exhibiting any undue reliability issues because, surprise, they were engineered to do this. And they still have to meet the same emissions requirements, factoring in the restarts, so I can't say as I see that as a disqualifier. But it sounds evil, for sure. They are a little strange to drive, but I can't say my life will be diminished if/when they become standard. (The '16 Civic clearly is just shy of having it since it has the e-brake. Suspect it's already in Honda's roadmap for CAFE-driven improvements for the car.) I also remember some of the absolutely hideous early-to-mid '70's cars with their utterly terrible driveability, among other hideous attributes. So, yeah, I get that change may have some rough spots. (GM came out with the Vega in '71. Honda started selling the S600 in the US the same year. In '86 Honda introduced the Legend and GM was still selling warmed over Vegas. Some manufacturers will try to make the best of these changes, other will just do the minimum to get by.)

I haven't read anybody reporting that a Tesla S is an unpleasant driving experience. A fuel cell car with four independent wheel motors would, I think, be a great deal of fun to drive. Electric motors make torque like nothing else. Alas, yes, when the technology for that vehicle is ready, the technology to replace the driver will probably be too.

I'm certain the Concorde was a more pleasant travel experience than 10-abreast coach on a 777. (The great speed liners like the United States and the France were probably pretty cool too.) But the Concorde is gone and the 10-abreast 777 is the current rage.

Things change. For economic and regulatory reasons, among others. And sometimes we have to give up stuff that really isn't good for us and our descendants, no matter how cool it is for us.

* and, as with increased automation in commercial aviation, all these changes have had two contrary effects: 1) driven average safety up in 99% of cases since they are better than the average mortal and error-prone human operating them, and 2) made those few situations where the human still has to help or override the automation actually much more dangerous since the human has now lost all skill at operating the machine the old-fashioned way. So it goes.

 

[10GCivicSi_Vs_5GPrelude]

You are mixing a lot of off-topic gripes in with the liberty-depriving and impossible-to-meet CAFE regs.

The first car I bought was a '78 Ford Fiesta "Sport" with power nothing and a 4 speed manual. Didn't own an automatic until 2000. Have owned an SLK230 (5M) and an 135i (8AT--best transmission I ever drove). Rode in a friend's E-Type V12 once. Owned a half share of a '71 MG Midget with a missing 3rd gear for a while. I get the driving experience thing. Have a '16 Civic Touring on order, so, obviously, I have no hangups about autonomous safety systems. And I suspect as they get further developed and come down in price they will become mandated safety systems--most everything else that has demonstrated a safety benefit ultimately has.* (Even some crap that hasn't has.) I've drive (but never owned) Start/Stop cars. They aren't, from what I can see/read, exhibiting any undue reliability issues because, surprise, they were engineered to do this. And they still have to meet the same emissions requirements, factoring in the restarts, so I can't say as I see that as a disqualifier. But it sounds evil, for sure. They are a little strange to drive, but I can't say my life will be diminished if/when they become standard. (The '16 Civic clearly is just shy of having it since it has the e-brake. Suspect it's already in Honda's roadmap for CAFE-driven improvements for the car.) I also remember some of the absolutely hideous early-to-mid '70's cars with their utterly terrible driveability, among other hideous attributes. So, yeah, I get that change may have some rough spots. (GM came out with the Vega in '71. Honda started selling the S600 in the US the same year. In '86 Honda introduced the Legend and GM was still selling warmed over Vegas. Some manufacturers will try to make the best of these changes, other will just do the minimum to get by.)

I haven't read anybody reporting that a Tesla S is an unpleasant driving experience. A fuel cell car with four independent wheel motors would, I think, be a great deal of fun to drive. Electric motors make torque like nothing else. Alas, yes, when the technology for that vehicle is ready, the technology to replace the driver will probably be too.

I'm certain the Concorde was a more pleasant travel experience than 10-abreast coach on a 777. (The great speed liners like the United States and the France were probably pretty cool too.) But the Concorde is gone and the 10-abreast 777 is the current rage.

Things change. For economic and regulatory reasons, among others. And sometimes we have to give up stuff that really isn't good for us and our descendants, no matter how cool it is for us.

* and, as with increased automation in commercial aviation, all these changes have had two contrary effects: 1) driven average safety up in 99% of cases since they are better than the average mortal and error-prone human operating them, and 2) made those few situations where the human still has to help or override the automation actually much more dangerous since the human has now lost all skill at operating the machine the old-fashioned way. So it goes.

You are mixing a lot of off-topic gripes in with the liberty-depriving and impossible-to-meet CAFE regs.

The first car I bought was a '78 Ford Fiesta "Sport" with power nothing and a 4 speed manual. Didn't own an automatic until 2000. Have owned an SLK230 (5M) and an 135i (8AT--best transmission I ever drove). Rode in a friend's E-Type V12 once. Owned a half share of a '71 MG Midget with a missing 3rd gear for a while. I get the driving experience thing. Have a '16 Civic Touring on order, so, obviously, I have no hangups about autonomous safety systems. And I suspect as they get further developed and come down in price they will become mandated safety systems--most everything else that has demonstrated a safety benefit ultimately has.* (Even some crap that hasn't has.) I've drive (but never owned) Start/Stop cars. They aren't, from what I can see/read, exhibiting any undue reliability issues because, surprise, they were engineered to do this. And they still have to meet the same emissions requirements, factoring in the restarts, so I can't say as I see that as a disqualifier. But it sounds evil, for sure. They are a little strange to drive, but I can't say my life will be diminished if/when they become standard. (The '16 Civic clearly is just shy of having it since it has the e-brake. Suspect it's already in Honda's roadmap for CAFE-driven improvements for the car.) I also remember some of the absolutely hideous early-to-mid '70's cars with their utterly terrible driveability, among other hideous attributes. So, yeah, I get that change may have some rough spots. (GM came out with the Vega in '71. Honda started selling the S600 in the US the same year. In '86 Honda introduced the Legend and GM was still selling warmed over Vegas. Some manufacturers will try to make the best of these changes, other will just do the minimum to get by.)

I haven't read anybody reporting that a Tesla S is an unpleasant driving experience. A fuel cell car with four independent wheel motors would, I think, be a great deal of fun to drive. Electric motors make torque like nothing else. Alas, yes, when the technology for that vehicle is ready, the technology to replace the driver will probably be too.

I'm certain the Concorde was a more pleasant travel experience than 10-abreast coach on a 777. (The great speed liners like the United States and the France were probably pretty cool too.) But the Concorde is gone and the 10-abreast 777 is the current rage.

Things change. For economic and regulatory reasons, among others. And sometimes we have to give up stuff that really isn't good for us and our descendants, no matter how cool it is for us.

* and, as with increased automation in commercial aviation, all these changes have had two contrary effects: 1) driven average safety up in 99% of cases since they are better than the average mortal and error-prone human operating them, and 2) made those few situations where the human still has to help or override the automation actually much more dangerous since the human has now lost all skill at operating the machine the old-fashioned way. So it goes.

What you have characterized as "a little strange" I call undriveable. ...but you understand perfectly what I mean when I talk about the driving experience, so appreciate your reply!

 

[17CivicTypeR_Brian]

Not to beat dead horses...
but I for one welcome the Honda Sensing and I can't believe I would say that. I love to drive. More than anything except making kids I would say. That said, sometimes I sneeze. Sometimes I need a second hand to open the top on my coffee cup. Sometimes I find a spider or bee in the car. Sometimes the kids 'urgently need' me to pick up some treasure they picked up at Target. Sometimes these things happen at 70mph on the interstate. When I'm in our Acura, I trust that I won't drift out of my lane during these times. The thing won't drive me home or take over if I need a nap, but it has my back in the event some 'minor' interruption occurs. No more doing as our parents did and driving down the highway with our knees. No more 'grab the wheel, honey' because I can just let go of the thing and let the machine take over briefly. If conditions change and I don't want the features on, I just push the two or 3 buttons to turn all the crap off and have at it.
The best part of the thing is its my wife's car and the family hauler. I feel like she is safer if she has the 'car' looking out for her on her lengthy commute.
I'm hoping to get these kinds of things in my TypeR. I'm assuming the current European "GT" package will make its way to us.

I didn't get the Advance, which has start-stop, but I can see how that would be annoying. I thought start-stop only occurred if the car was stopped for a length of time, and if the A/C was on or if the engine was still cold, it wouldn't turn off...?

 

[10GCivicSi_Vs_5GPrelude]

Not to beat dead horses...
but I for one welcome the Honda Sensing and I can't believe I would say that. I love to drive. More than anything except making kids I would say. That said, sometimes I sneeze. Sometimes I need a second hand to open the top on my coffee cup. Sometimes I find a spider or bee in the car. Sometimes the kids 'urgently need' me to pick up some treasure they picked up at Target. Sometimes these things happen at 70mph on the interstate. When I'm in our Acura, I trust that I won't drift out of my lane during these times. The thing won't drive me home or take over if I need a nap, but it has my back in the event some 'minor' interruption occurs. No more doing as our parents did and driving down the highway with our knees. No more 'grab the wheel, honey' because I can just let go of the thing and let the machine take over briefly. If conditions change and I don't want the features on, I just push the two or 3 buttons to turn all the crap off and have at it.
The best part of the thing is its my wife's car and the family hauler. I feel like she is safer if she has the 'car' looking out for her on her lengthy commute.
I'm hoping to get these kinds of things in my TypeR. I'm assuming the current European "GT" package will make its way to us.

I didn't get the Advance, which has start-stop, but I can see how that would be annoying. I thought start-stop only occurred if the car was stopped for a length of time, and if the A/C was on or if the engine was still cold, it wouldn't turn off...?

You are correct in noting that start/stop will take effect based on a small set of criteria beyond simply having stopped, and that will make it that little bit less predictable and that much more annoying! (understatement)

 

[dick w]

The only reason I find the Start/Stop thing strange is that it's different. It's like people not liking CVTs because they don't shift, and they can't see the tach bob up and down, and feel the changes in acceleration with each shift, and that's different. I certainly don't find it changes driveability. It's just a new normal to get used to. I suspect if they designed the Start/Stop machines with software to fake the tach, and fake the engine noise when they shut off the engine, and not light up all the dash indicators to tell you what it's doing, it would be pretty hard to tell for most people in most situations. (I particularly had this sensation in a 5 series where the engine noise and vibration and what not was very well managed at idle anyway.) This is what Honda does with CVT "G-Shift logic"--make it feel like what people think is "normal" so they don't "dislike" it because it's not "normal". Didn't I read somewhere that you could have the Tesla S inject an engine sound into the audio system?

 

[DrivenSoul]

So... Any driving impressions on the engine from this event? I'm curious to know without the ability of a CVT to keep the turbo in it's sweet spot, if it feels good moving through the rev range.
At what RPM does it really start moving, does it come suddenly or smoothly and does it taper off power towards the red line?

 

[dick w]

Any driving impressions on the engine from this event?

"Driving impressions" from these events are typically embargoed by Honda until some point closer to the release date. The press plays along so they get invited, and wined, and dined, next time.

 

[DrivenSoul]

Oh that's right, I did one for the 2015 Honda Fit release and there was an embargo too, thanks. Hopefully they will chime in on when they can give us sumthin

 

[thomasok]

Oh that's right, I did one for the 2015 Honda Fit release and there was an embargo too, thanks. Hopefully they will chime in on when they can give us sumthin

I believe the administrator said it was embargoed until February 22nd. Apparently this is when the coupe's specifics will be revealed by Honda - trims, specs, pricing, expected delivery dates, etc,

 

[dangerous14]

when is the release date

 

[17CivicTypeR_Brian]

Shifter looks the same as the current 2.0 LX. I drove it, no big deal. What I'd like to see is paddle shifting on the CVT Turbo.

For simulated gear changes?

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