My dyno results fbo my tune vs hondata

D-RobIMW

www.imwtuned.com
First Name
Derek
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
379
Reaction score
1,075
Location
Carlisle, PA
Vehicle(s)
2017 Civic Si, 2019 Accord Sport 2.0T, 2001 Integra Type R, 2019 RDX A-Spec
Country flag
says right in hondata help video on tuning to run 3-4 runs before changing anything in the tune.. for fuel to learn/level out
I think you're mistaking the note regarding the time delay until the primary O2 sensor actually comes online.
Sponsored

 

kefi

oh shit waddup its dat boi
Joined
Jan 8, 2020
Threads
14
Messages
1,614
Reaction score
2,523
Location
Central Florida
Website
fk8.clinic
Vehicle(s)
2018 Type R
Build Thread
Link
Country flag
Go run a data log on hondata tune look at your pump demand. 100 percent! Your still a keyboard chaser. Trash talker. I don’t post half the crap cause guys like you who have no life and troll the forums just to talk shit!! Instead of sharing you just blurt our like a child.”oh your wrong you dont know what your about”. This is exactly why everyone talks shit about Honda forums. Cause a lot of people here talk shit. I truly don’t give a fuck if I get removed at this point. If they do I want them to delete every post I’ve ever made and have every person I’ve just tried to help go to you so you can just be an ass to them instead of helping.
I for one enjoy the more technical discussions you bring to the table and would be sad if you left. It's sometimes a little difficult to understand what you're trying to say but you were in the right - yes, redline, there is a fuel learning process. Every single modern car has it. Short term fuel trim. Long term fuel trim. You think those numbers are just there for us to stare at? And the comment about DIFP/duty having nothing to do with trims is grossly incorrect. Trims change the amount of fuel. The amount of fuel changes the duty required. They are DIRECTLY connected. Open loop vs closed loop WILL change your duty cycles.

Ever wonder why those are locked in perfectly at 0% and 14.7 after a flash until you actually drive it around? It's because it's learning again, figuring out how to properly read the sensors at the intake and exhaust in correlation with eachother to determine how much of your fuel is or isn't being burned so it can then change the amount of fuel it actually injects.
No car has a perfect MAF sensor/intake, and you need pretty precise calculations to make the booms happen just right. So your car learns how badly it's fucking up and makes corrections for that.

Until then, you're running in fuel state 1, which is 'OPEN LOOP UNREADY' in OBD2 terms. An open loop means the data isn't feeding back into the system to make corrections. Meaning your actual mixture of air and fuel is gonna be inaccurate. Even in the official Hondata documentation, they state this:

After reflashing the lambda will take around 2 km and 2.5 minutes to read. On a dyno it is best to run the vehicle until the lambda starts to read, otherwise the engine may run richer or leaner than intended.
Guess what happens when the engine runs richer than intended? Black smoke. You don't shit out black smoke because you ran out of pressure, that would only lead to a leaner state which doesn't result in black smoke. His comments made perfect sense if you guys weren't just trying to be dickheads on the internet. He rambles, but what he says is sound if you can make sense of it. He reflashed his car on the dyno, didn't let it relearn the lambda, so it had black smoke. He ran it for some pulls, it learned lambda, it got better. He noticed the pump limit at 95% was causing too many issues, so he raised it to 100% effectively turning it off. Nothing that called for being rude and claiming he knows nothing. Have you even tried changing your own parameters?

The key thing to note here is that for most cars, this system is really just for emissions. In our turbocharged cars where having an exact mixture during high boost scenarios is critical, it also affects your performance, especially when you're pushing the limits on every component.

Him letting the fuel pump spike out at 95% and 100% isn't some horrendous thing either. Letting the fuel pump hit 100% for a brief moment at peak is not detrimental to the fuel pump itself nor the engine. Hondata themselves say it is ideal for it to just briefly touch 100% without the fuel pressure dropping. The fuel pump is driven by the camshaft, so it's directly connected to your RPMs only. Stay below 7200RPM and your fuel pump will live another day. The real issue of hitting 100% duty for too long is because you will drop fuel pressure for a little bit, which while not ideal is not something akin to detonation like you guys are making it out to be. The ECU literally has a compensation mechanism for this exact scenario. He knows full well that he's bringing it to the limits where 'shit happens'.

Also, regarding the limits you're setting it to @Jpierro79,

It is normal for the pump duty to overshoot the target value, so the target value should be much below 100%. Ideally you want to pump to touch 100% but the fuel pressure not to drop. Since the fuel pump piston stroke is not linear from camshaft rotation even if you limit the fuel pump to 90% duty you are actually at 97.5% fuel pump flow.
In testing I found that values of 88% for the target and 88% for the hysteresis worked for our vehicles.
Just ignore the keyboard warriors, bro. I'm just as tired of the Facebook group echo chamber as you are, everyone just parroting what they saw posted once by somebody without ever actually researching everything from top to bottom. I just ignore it and post all the info I know. What I'm most interested in is some datalogs combined with the dyno charts.

Thanks for the post and keep on sharing the knowledge and advancing the platform! Everybody's tinkering counts. :headbang:

And by the way, yes, Hondatas maps hit 100% duty cycle on the 93 maps in certain climates. It doesn't ride it, but I bet you my last dollar it'll peak to 100% with the right highway pull.

Like god damn, how can you call someone out and say they're wrong about everything and an idiot with tools when literally everything they said was true? Even if Jpierro WAS wrong, yall are some assholes. Jumped straight to name calling and assuming they're 100% dumb. I was afraid to post my megathread for this same reason. We will never learn anything if people want to throw shit over every disagreement. People like me and Jpierro will never want to post real knowledge for you guys to learn or theories for us to ponder because it'll just result in this.

Act like fucking adults instead of teenagers at a high school mustang meet. Truth is, 99% of Type R owners don't know shit and only repeat what they saw on the comments in the latest post in their FB feed. Jpierro is not one of those owners. He asks questions I've never even seen before. He has answers to things I have yet to see answered.
 
Last edited:

turbociv910

Senior Member
First Name
taylor
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Threads
22
Messages
1,010
Reaction score
993
Location
wilmington nc
Vehicle(s)
2020 SGP Civic Type R, Audi Q5
Build Thread
Link
Country flag
I think you're mistaking the note regarding the time delay until the primary O2 sensor actually comes online.
Nope. He says to make a few runs first before changing anything with live tuning. You know they run rich after flashing. Thats what im referring too. Not sensor warm up delay.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Jpierro79

Jpierro79

Senior Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Threads
33
Messages
398
Reaction score
273
Location
Myrtle beach South Carolina
Vehicle(s)
2018 type R 2015 c300
Country flag
Nope. He says to make a few runs first before changing anything with live tuning. You know they run rich after flashing. Thats what im referring too. Not sensor warm up delay.
They run pig rich after flashes you have to let them learn to pull fuel out safely. It’s a safety barrier in long term fuel trims so if for some reason you get on it before it’s learned it won’t damage the engine. Also note turns out i would have made more power from 4-5500 and smoother I was getting intermittent throttle closures cause I set the torque request too low. I was riding the edge of torque limit.
 

D-RobIMW

www.imwtuned.com
First Name
Derek
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
379
Reaction score
1,075
Location
Carlisle, PA
Vehicle(s)
2017 Civic Si, 2019 Accord Sport 2.0T, 2001 Integra Type R, 2019 RDX A-Spec
Country flag
Nope. He says to make a few runs first before changing anything with live tuning. You know they run rich after flashing. Thats what im referring too. Not sensor warm up delay.
I have never seen this. Once the sensor comes online and actually starts responding, it's always right on the lambda target.
 


OP
OP
Jpierro79

Jpierro79

Senior Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Threads
33
Messages
398
Reaction score
273
Location
Myrtle beach South Carolina
Vehicle(s)
2018 type R 2015 c300
Country flag
I have never seen this. Once the sensor comes online and actually starts responding, it's always right on the lambda target.
No it’s not actually. If you watch it careefully it cones in right at 13.2 then rapidly goes to lambda. The reason it jumps around so much it’s using rapid short term fuel trims. From that it calculates a means difference and adjusts that area of the fueling. It then moves that area by a certain percentage I order to keep within so many percent range. That change to overall fueling is what long term fuel trims are for and every car newer within 20 years at least that has either an o2 sensor, which read much slower, or like our car that has a true wide band style air fuel sensor makes these adjustments every time you run you car. You will constantly see it moving around to during so it can always find that closest to center value and when the long term fuel trims adjust each time the ecu will have a better idea where accurate fueling is. Fueling changes always with temp barometric pressure and even humidity. The difference is most cars do not stay in closed loop. This means the ecu constantly makes adjustments for the most accurate fueling usually for fuel efficiency. Open loop means it relies on MAP MAF ECT IAT sensors to provide fueling and ignores anything outside this parameters. That’s how cars without air fuel sensors that use plain slow o2 sensors work. Because the air fuel sensor can read something around 100 times per second now you can let the computer make more accurate adjustments. Might even be more times per second I’m not google lol.
Here’s how you can validate what It
Lean codes are set when an ecu has to adjust long term fuel trims outside a certain percentage. Most o2 based cars are a fuel trim of 10 percent. Which is exactly what you think 10 percent less fuel.p0701 bank too lean is the code. If the computer didn’t have a constantly state of learning people would never get those codes. Cause it wouldn’t constantly be changing fueling.when lambda is spot on it means your long term trims are spot on. Unless you log long term fuel trims you won’t see changes. It does it entirely to fast.
If you change target fuel in your tuning it doesn’t not automatically adjust trims it has to learn it. On MAF cars Woth both Open loop and closed loop type systems you’ll often change a base line fuel chart to a certain rpm for the closed loop section and anything where the car turns to open loop you’ll change the made curve to adjust fueling. You do NOT just use a target lambda cause if you just change the target the ecu will see to great a long term fuel trims and throw lean codes. Not to mention your fuel will be way off during wide open throttle. I hope this explains how and why this works and feel free to ask questions.
 

D-RobIMW

www.imwtuned.com
First Name
Derek
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
379
Reaction score
1,075
Location
Carlisle, PA
Vehicle(s)
2017 Civic Si, 2019 Accord Sport 2.0T, 2001 Integra Type R, 2019 RDX A-Spec
Country flag
I do not need a lesson on how lambda feedback works.

I have never seen fueling not be right on target following a flash, once the O2 has actually come online.

Attached is a screen cap of log of a dyno run immediately following a flash, and driving the car juuuuuust long enough on the dyno in steady state to get the O2 working... No WOT runs prior to this... Right on target.

Honda Civic 10th gen My dyno results fbo my tune vs hondata AFRTARGET
 

kefi

oh shit waddup its dat boi
Joined
Jan 8, 2020
Threads
14
Messages
1,614
Reaction score
2,523
Location
Central Florida
Website
fk8.clinic
Vehicle(s)
2018 Type R
Build Thread
Link
Country flag
lol, useful for others to read nonetheless

@Jpierro79 @D-RobIMW is Derek Robinson from Innovative Motorworks. He's the one who made the KTuner basemaps and pretty much the only e-tuner we have. Most experienced tuner the platform has right now, most likely.

I think everybody's just mixed up - it seems like everyone's really saying the same thing.. The lambda doesn't read whatsoever until the O2 comes online. The O2 doesn't come online until it's done learning. The 'learning' and the 'sensor delay' are really the same thing at the start, no? Until then, it'll be off target. It won't come online until it'll be fairly on target and it'll continue to learn from thereon.

It snaps pretty much instantly for me too once it comes online.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Jpierro79

Jpierro79

Senior Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Threads
33
Messages
398
Reaction score
273
Location
Myrtle beach South Carolina
Vehicle(s)
2018 type R 2015 c300
Country flag
It’s not an o2 sensor it’s air fuel ratio sensor. O2 has limited range. It can not read beyond 12-1 or leaner than 17-1 and hardly accurate to begin with which is why you can’t tune with just O2. Please do not confuse the two. Unless your going to specifically state wide band.
People should know the difference and should be stated accurately the second sensor is often an o2 to monitor cat efficiency nothing to due with fuel trims.
Honda Civic 10th gen My dyno results fbo my tune vs hondata E7633D5C-1BD5-4F0E-898C-2C13A2976BAE
 

hpbyhermann

Senior Member
First Name
Hermann
Joined
May 14, 2019
Threads
42
Messages
705
Reaction score
947
Location
Edgewater Maryland
Vehicle(s)
2019 Championship white Type R #25133, 09' Civic SI sedan, black 2013 Boss 302 Laguna Seca, 1993 Mustang Cobra, 2004 Mustang Cobra
Country flag
I'm a professional calibrator for a living, specifically on Ford products. On these and any other vehicles I've dyno tested and calibrated after the initial startup complete and the fueling switched off from the warm up tables the short term fuel trims are used to setup the initial fueling, then after enough historical data has been captured the long term fueling data is applied to the fuel curves. Both need to be monitored to get the full and final picture. Also it wouldn't be a bad idea to double check the actual Lambda values with a second known ACCURATE wideband sensor to assure accuracy. I use 2 separate laboratory quality AFM 1000 wideband units when I tune the Fords even through those run in closed loop operation, even at WOT. I am going to calibrate my own CTR when time allows on my dyno, then verifying proper operation on street conditions because of the different load conditions. I'm sure Derek would agree with these points and tips to assure proper final calibration has occurred!:thumbsup:
 


kefi

oh shit waddup its dat boi
Joined
Jan 8, 2020
Threads
14
Messages
1,614
Reaction score
2,523
Location
Central Florida
Website
fk8.clinic
Vehicle(s)
2018 Type R
Build Thread
Link
Country flag
Oh, I didn't realize there was a difference. Still learning every day! I started really learning about engines and tuning once I got my FK8, I have little experience elsewhere.

So what we have is a built in wideband, right? Is that in all new cars or just performance ones? I noticed that all the older forum posts from older sites talk about having to get one from AEM or something.

So jealous of your dyno hookup. No good ones around here.
 
Last edited:

hpbyhermann

Senior Member
First Name
Hermann
Joined
May 14, 2019
Threads
42
Messages
705
Reaction score
947
Location
Edgewater Maryland
Vehicle(s)
2019 Championship white Type R #25133, 09' Civic SI sedan, black 2013 Boss 302 Laguna Seca, 1993 Mustang Cobra, 2004 Mustang Cobra
Country flag
"Wideband" refers to the fact that they have a wider band of information they can monitor. Older "narrowband" sensors were designed for feedback under closed loop operation. They had a smaller range of feedback and were able to provide information feedback in the idling and cruise portions. Under WOT operation they were basically useless.
 

D-RobIMW

www.imwtuned.com
First Name
Derek
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
379
Reaction score
1,075
Location
Carlisle, PA
Vehicle(s)
2017 Civic Si, 2019 Accord Sport 2.0T, 2001 Integra Type R, 2019 RDX A-Spec
Country flag
It’s not an o2 sensor it’s air fuel ratio sensor. O2 has limited range. It can not read beyond 12-1 or leaner than 17-1 and hardly accurate to begin with which is why you can’t tune with just O2. Please do not confuse the two. Unless your going to specifically state wide band.
People should know the difference and should be stated accurately the second sensor is often an o2 to monitor cat efficiency nothing to due with fuel trims.
E7633D5C-1BD5-4F0E-898C-2C13A2976BAE.png
JFC, you know exactly what I'm referring to.

The primary sensor is still an oxygen sensor.
 

hpbyhermann

Senior Member
First Name
Hermann
Joined
May 14, 2019
Threads
42
Messages
705
Reaction score
947
Location
Edgewater Maryland
Vehicle(s)
2019 Championship white Type R #25133, 09' Civic SI sedan, black 2013 Boss 302 Laguna Seca, 1993 Mustang Cobra, 2004 Mustang Cobra
Country flag
Just wanted to add that "Air-Fuel" is NOT the sensors native language. They are designed to read in Lambda units.:thumbsup: Air-Fuel is a conversion that is reached after finding the chemical makeup of said fuel. Stoichiometric values of different fuels are the reason most calibrators deal in Lambda values.​
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Jpierro79

Jpierro79

Senior Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Threads
33
Messages
398
Reaction score
273
Location
Myrtle beach South Carolina
Vehicle(s)
2018 type R 2015 c300
Country flag
JFC, you know exactly what I'm referring to.

The primary sensor is still an oxygen sensor.
The problem is you say o2 and every guy with a car that has one then can’t understand why his o2 isn’t good enough. That’s why we need to be clear stating wide band o2 not just o2. Or easier air fuel ratio sensor removes all confusion. The average individual reading these threads doesn’t know this. If we don’t post accurately we are giving them only part of the correct answer.
It has nothing to do with you directly.
As far as your fuel target did you use different target values than stock??
If I flash stock target values it’s dead on first pull. You can do that all day. I don’t run the same stock values. I believe I stated this right away. I know you don’t need to change them but I’m not a fan of anything over 12.5 in boost.
Maybe I should clarify that stock fuel target values never gave me any rich fueling on first pull. Now I don’t run anything more than 11.8 to 1 but it did take more than one pull to level off on the dyno.
also it never ran like that on the street after a flash on first pull. You know a dyno is not a direct representation of the street. Unless you build a dyno that can perfectly load the exact weight of the car there’s no way to get a perfect representation. I just needed. To find our where power increase stops then adjust accordingly to make the car happy.
In all data.
Sponsored

 
Last edited:


 


Top