My altered scrub radius and torque steer experience

[Noize]

OK, anybody who says you can alter the offset pretty dramatically on this car and claims you don't get torque steer is downplaying it a bit.

I recently picked up some nice 18x9.5 +35 wheels and mounted 255/40 tires on them. Overall combination is about 5 lbs. lighter per corner.

My car is otherwise stock, but 295 torque is still a lot for a FWD car. Today was unseasonably warm outside, and I put the new wheel and tire combo to the test with many aggressive corners of varying speeds with heavy throttle on entry. Here are my observations:

1) Torque steer is more obvious in corners on throttle. The stock +60 offset wheels do not exhibit this behavior, especially not in third gear.

2) 18" wheels with 40 tall rubber lessen the steering feel of sharpness at turn-in.

3) 18" wheels with 40 tall rubber lessen the immediacy of response for all steering inputs, thus decreasing handling feel due to so much extra sidewall.

4) I'm on 240 wear Bridgestone S007A, so although some feel is decreased, actual cornering speeds are maybe even a little higher due to a wider track and wider tires/wheels (more contact patch). These tires are rated extreme performance to the OEM Conti's that are max performance. But they seem close to one another in overall grip.

5) Driving comfort and harshness isolation is increased substantially with 18" wheels and 40 tall rubber. I was driving on a very poor road, and my car was isolating me from bumps much better in +R on the 18s than it does on the 20s in comfort. Pretty nice!

6) While 9.5 +35 wheels look nice, aggressive, and poke just the right amount, you'll absolutely need at least front mud flaps if you want to protect your paint. Pushing the tires out that far puts the sides of the car in harm's way for rock or pebble spray. My Rally Armor flaps arrive tomorrow, and I’ll install the fronts first and see how that goes. I haven't seen much spray behind the rear wheels yet, but don't have a lot of miles on the new wheels yet to know for sure.

I think people are making more of a big deal about scrub radius than need be. And here's why: It's a trade off. Sure, it would be nice if there were some +60 18" wheels out there, but at this point there are not.

Since we cannot really sell our wheels to the Si or base Civic guys due to a different bolt pattern, it seems silly to sell the stock wheels. Given the possible future collectability and high resale value of these cars, I think getting rid of the stock wheels would be a mistake anyway.

All that to say: Keep your stock wheels and tires so you can swap back and forth to have the best of both worlds. One can never have too many wheels.

Edit: Removed any reference to tracking, as that’s best left to those with more experience. I’m still learning about this stuff, so feel free to correct me where my ideas aren’t right.

Happy motoring.

Sponsored

 

[jonnys_honda]

Apologies but your experiences are due to poor tire choice. Size especially. 30 to 40 sidewall is where you loose the feeling.

All that to say: Keep your stock wheels and tires for when you're at a track day or autocrossing the car to maximize feel.

And this was the nail on the coffin for your observations. The oem wheels and tires are the worst possible choice for a track day. There’s enough info out there where the oem tires lasted one day.

Change up the tire when you can to something more aggressive like a re-71r, ad08r, or a052. You’ll have better results

If you want more track goers to chime in, I’ll ping @Stig_jdm and @JLOracing to speak up.

 

[Noize]

30-40 is where you lose feeling? Is that typed wrong? Anything outside that range will be way too short or too tall.

 

[Noize]

Apologies but your experiences are due to poor tire choice. Size especially. 30 to 40 sidewall is where you loose the feeling.



And this was the nail on the coffin for your observations. The oem wheels and tires are the worst possible choice for a track day. There’s enough info out there where the oem tires lasted one day.

Change up the tire when you can to something more aggressive like a re-71r, ad08r, or a052. You’ll have better results

If you want more track goers to chime in, I’ll ping @Stig_jdm and @JLOracing to speak up.

Granted those are all three better than OEM without question. But to track, I’d prefer the stock wheels.

 

[ctrmofo]

^^^ what he said and furthermore...

Ok on scrub radius but...

A. 255/40/18 is absolutely wrong size...either 245/40/18 or 265/35/18

B. “Feel” maybe confused with turn in response

C. Honda promotes 20” wheels as fashion wheels since it has to sell cars. Same thing like iPhone Plus vs regular size. No one tracks with 20” and rubber bands. All trackers and racing CTRs are 18” and higher sidewalls.

D. Bridgestone S007 is 240 wear rating and not considered that aggressive. We use 200 or less wear rating like RE71R, A052, Toyo R888R heat cycled.

Feel...it’s about the tire carcass. Tires above are stiffer carcasses even with higher sidewalls and wider to give better quicker turn in with greater slip angle than stock 245/30/20 tires which has low slip angle. Stiffness with rubber band tires is a false sense of feel.

 

[jonnys_honda]

30-40 is where you lose feeling? Is that typed wrong? Anything outside that range will be way too short or too tall.

30-40 as in going from a 30 sidewall and installing a 40.

 

[Noize]

^^^ what he said and furthermore...

Ok on scrub radius but...

A. 255/40/18 is absolutely wrong size...either 245/40/18 or 265/35/18

B. “Feel” maybe confused with turn in response

C. Honda promotes 20” wheels as fashion wheels since it has to sell cars. Same thing like iPhone Plus vs regular size. No one tracks with 20” and rubber bands. All trackers and racing CTRs are 18” and higher sidewalls.

D. Bridgestone S007 is 240 wear rating and not considered that aggressive. We use 200 or less wear rating like RE71R, A052, Toyo R888R heat cycled.

Feel...it’s about the tire carcass. Tires above are stiffer carcasses even with higher sidewalls and wider to give better quicker turn in with greater slip angle than stock 245/30/20 tires which has low slip angle. Stiffness with rubber band tires is a false sense of feel.

Challenge "Aston D. Martin's" assumptions for the win today, eh?

To call it "absolutely wrong size" is ridiculous. 255/40/18 is 3.1mm taller than stock and speedo is off by 0.56mph at 60mph. Check your math. 265/35/18 is 6.2mm shorter than stock and speedo is off in the other direction by 1.15mph.
245/40 is .17 mph off, but no extra tire width, and talk about stretching it over a 9.5" wheel! Forget that.

You can track on any wheel you want. I'd like a +60 wheel on track. The best bet out there might be FK2 wheels, since you can get 35 series rubber on them and not knock the speedo off too far.

I'm fully aware that RE-71R are higher performance and stated so. But I wouldn't throw the stock tires in the trash. I'd use them up first and replace them. If I'm out there, I'm racing against myself to improve. I'm not going to be FTD, no way.

 

[Noize]

30-40 as in going from a 30 sidewall and installing a 40.

Don't disagree at all. I have no intention of tracking on the 40s. As stated, my 18" are DD wheels and tires. They look nice and are comfortable without a huge performance hit since they're 240 treadwear. Honestly, I'll probably run something even higher on them next time like 300 wear PS4S.

While I still won't throw out my stock wheels and tires, you have me thinking about FK2 wheels for the track, or waiting until something with a numerically high offset hits the aftermarket.

 

[ctrmofo]

Challenge "Aston D. Martin's" assumptions for the win today, eh?

To call it "absolutely wrong size" is ridiculous. 255/40/18 is 3.1mm taller than stock and speedo is off by 0.56mph at 60mph. Check your math. 265/35/18 is 6.2mm shorter than stock and speedo is off in the other direction by 1.15mph.
245/40 is .17 mph off, but no extra tire width, and talk about stretching it over a 9.5" wheel! Forget that.

You can track on any wheel you want. I'd like a +60 wheel on track. The best bet out there might be FK2 wheels, since you can get 35 series rubber on them and not knock the speedo off too far.

I'm fully aware that RE-71R are higher performance and stated so. But I wouldn't throw the stock tires in the trash. I'd use them up first and replace them. If I'm out there, I'm racing against myself to improve. I'm not going to be FTD, no way.

wait, you posted virtues of scrub radius...all good there. 255/45/18 is 0.9% off from stock. 245/40/18 is 0.3% off from stock. fair enough but you touched on "feel" so 245/40/18 will be better feel even better is 265/35/18 for reasons stated above.

anything more than 2% is too much and fact it's taller slows you down and other side effects. nothing said about wheel width but as for stretching, no, 245 is max tire width on a 9.5" if that's what one has and works fine. i'm on that size now for winter.

not sure the point here, but you're boldly recommending this: "All that to say: Keep your stock wheels and tires for when you're at a track day or autocrossing the car to maximize feel. Talk about the best of both worlds! Then you can have a set of 18s with extra rubber that makes the car so much nicer to daily drive. And if you want it to look nice, a lower offset accomplishes that."

shows your lack of experience here and others who are more experienced will point it out soon. we don't track or autox on 20's...no one with experience does. we go to 18" and wider tires...it's that simple from decades of experience. what you said is completely opposite of all those who are hard core folks on here so no challenge needed, simply facts.

 

[Design]

R&T recently did a write-up on some of the downsides of altering the diameter, offset and rotational mass of the factory setup. The title is somewhat misleading and there are definitely ways to compensate (as stated above). But it provides a decent technical explanation on some of the net impacts.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cu...5683452/smaller-lighter-wheels-hurt-handling/

In the OP's case, respective to #2 and #3, the change in aspect ratio might be inducing more sidewall flex and the perceived loss in road feel/feedback. At least that's my hunch here...

 

[Noize]

wait, you posted virtues of scrub radius...all good there. 255/45/18 is 0.9% off from stock. 245/40/18 is 0.3% off from stock. fair enough but you touched on "feel" so 245/40/18 will be better feel even better is 265/35/18 for reasons stated above.

anything more than 2% is too much and fact it's taller slows you down and other side effects. nothing said about wheel width but as for stretching, no, 245 is max tire width on a 9.5" if that's what one has and works fine. i'm on that size now for winter.

not sure the point here, but you're boldly recommending this: "All that to say: Keep your stock wheels and tires for when you're at a track day or autocrossing the car to maximize feel. Talk about the best of both worlds! Then you can have a set of 18s with extra rubber that makes the car so much nicer to daily drive. And if you want it to look nice, a lower offset accomplishes that."

shows your lack of experience here and others who are more experienced will point it out soon. we don't track or autox on 20's...no one with experience does. we go to 18" and wider tires...it's that simple from decades of experience. what you said is completely opposite of all those who are hard core folks on here so no challenge needed, simply facts.

I’m an older enthusiast as well. The bulk of my 30 years playing with cars up to this point has been engine modification and tuning.

I bought my CTR in hopes of learning better car control, getting on track again (the sum of my experience up to this point is only one track weekend with an in-car instructor and a few autocrosses), and of course having fun.

I reckoned the factory wheels would be the better choice of the two sets I have so I don’t have to contend with torque steer while my instructor is teaching me proper lines and braking zones.

If you guys feel my 18s will be better, I’ll try them. Tires should matter very little at my level, I just want to get the basics under my belt this year.

 

[Lust]

1. I don't think you truly know what torque steer is
2. Poor choice in tire size and compound
3. Stock wheel/tire combo doesn't belong on track

I personally would not have gone with a +35 offset wheel and a 40 series tire.

 

[FifStreet]

I'm glad people are dumping their stock wheels and tires. Its keeping prices on used ones low. Picked up a spare set for a reasonable price. (DD, track) Who knows maybe I will pick up a 3rd set eventually, lol? (DD, winter, track).

I have a question for those experiencing better track performance with 18s... Doesn't that affect your class for autocross? i thought anything more than a +/- 1 put you in a different class? (I'm new to autocross)

 

[jasonjm]

I’m going to try and keep it funny to liven things by up.

Now, I’ve owned several tuned fwd Acura’s and Honda’s. Including a Mazdaspeed3.

The MS3 was an absolute torque steer animal!
If you don’t know I believe from the factory that this car takes the cake for torque steer. It was so vicious that you had to always have one hand on the steering wheel at all times. The tiniest pebble would have the car veer off to the side of the road, just like Tesla Autopilot.

The type-r doesn’t even come close to this. Even if there is any torque steer that can be measured I don’t feel anything. I either am numb, have Popeye arms, or dead inside. It could also be my big ass in the way. I dunno.

It’s to the point where my stock SH-AWD MDX torque steers more than my non stock offset Type-R (265/35/18 on 40 offset). 9 speed, 25 mph in first gear. You get going.


But seriously you guys can run whatever you want. Go run stock rims, everywhere.

We need people to keep the Type-r Honda supply chain healthy.

Wheel and tire insurance salesmen, tire manufacturers, and wheel repair shops, even the dealers need to eat too. Those families selling extended wheel warranties need your money. It’s a humanitarian crisis of the heart. Please donate.

I’ll continue to run both my 45 and 40 offset, 9.5 inch sets with pilots and ad08rs on the street and track. I’ll be going fast without a care in the world with regard to the tinkerbell torque steer or the damage to my wallet, with plenty more money left over for more track days and mods.

Thanks for giggling with me.

 

[Design]

Good to see another fellow MS3 owner on the board. You might remember that torque steer became much, MUCH more noticeable when crossing 290+ WTQ.

I'll be the voice of dissent, just for discussion sake. I do think the factory 20s will provide a better overall experience for beginners. Factory tuning aside, the shorter sidewall is less prone to flex under hard cornering. And handling should be a tad more predictable under those conditions (at the expense of some grip) .

I won't argue that downsizing provides an infinitely wider range of options. But you're likely going to sacrifice some feedback when adding another .8-1" of sidewall.

One guy's opinion here... take it with a grain of salt.

Sponsored