Michelin Cup 2 Shredded and Rolled

Sam3

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A while back, I had a spirited canyon drive on the Michelin Cup 2 with OEM cold tire pressure (35/F and 32/R), and on that hot day the car felt squirrely after about 20 minutes. So I thought the hot tire pressure is getting very high, resulting in the tire becoming rigid and losing its flex and grip. So for a subsequent trip, I decreased the cold tire pressure to 32/F and 30.5/R, especially that Michelin recommends running cold pressure of 25/F and 28/R (on a rear wheel drive car). See page 14 in this brochure:

https://www.tirerack.com/images/pdf/Michelin_Care_and_Feeding.pdf

That did not go well. The grip was definitely much better and no more squirreling. But the front left tire got shredded and big chunks peeled out of it down to the metal wires (you can see them in the pic). The tire also rolled (you can see some of the writing on the sidewall got chafed off). The tire has may be 4 thousand miles on it. The only thing of note is that I was taking an ascending right hairpin and on tracking out I gave it some throttle in 2nd gear. That caused a slight oversteer and the left front end hopped a bit.

Is that normal for the tire to roll and get shredded for a slight decrease in tire pressure? In performance driving schools, they set the tire pressure so low that the TPMS warning light is always on. I used a high quality pressure gauge (Longacre) right before heading out, so I didn't under-inflate by mistake. I also measured the tire pressure cold two days later and it's still at 32 psi, so the tire losing pressure to a puncture before that happened is ruled out.

Aside from the LE wheels and tires, the car is 100% stock (no tunes, no bolt-ons, no mechanical mods of any kind).

Has anyone had issues like this with the Cup 2 (or other tires) on the Type R?

Honda Civic 10th gen Michelin Cup 2 Shredded and Rolled shredded_cup2_1



Honda Civic 10th gen Michelin Cup 2 Shredded and Rolled shredded_cup2_2
 

spyder57

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Damn that's bad, those tires are done if shredded down to the metal. The stock contis definitely has rollover issues and chunk when pushing them hard, but don't think they ever shredded down like that.


Seems like you definitely underinflated if you're getting that much rollover. I haven't heard of the cup 2s having these issues.
 

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Recently a buddy of mine made a fb post regarding his cup 2's delaminating

Mind you he has a 2018 M4

Maybe a common issue? Here's his fb post

"Michelin Cup 2 - Delamination
Track car issues
Honda Civic 10th gen Michelin Cup 2 Shredded and Rolled 1f928

Front tires on my M4,
285/30/19 Cup2 ZP 94Y delaminating after 42 laps. Great wear assides from the delaminating.
Rear 305/30/19 98Y wearing beautifuly 0 issues.
I read about this being a common issue with CUP2s on track.
I ran them 32psi max hot f&r,
outside temperature ~26celsius.
Car settings:
Front
-4.1 Camber
0.02 degrees toe in per side
550 lbs springs
1" suspension travel before bumpstops
Whiteline sway bar full soft setting
Apex SM10 19x10 + 25
15mm spacer
Rear
-1.9 Camber
0.10 degrees toe In per side
750 lbs springs
1" travel before bumpstops.
Oem sway bar
Apex SM10 19x11 + 44
10mm spacer
Big Front splitter plus rear wing.
PowerStop track day pads F&R (excellent excellent pads,0 fade, great feel)
Quick glance of the car in the attached video.
Car is not under steering nor over steering it’s planted.
Started 28psi cold F&R
I do 2 warmup laps 70-80% pace before going hard on them for the rest of the session.
Any ideas? Or are these not suitable for sustained track race pace 20min sessions."

Honda Civic 10th gen Michelin Cup 2 Shredded and Rolled tires1
 
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Sam3

Sam3

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Recently a buddy of mine made a fb post regarding his cup 2's delaminating

Mind you he has a 2018 M4

Maybe a common issue? Here's his fb post

"Michelin Cup 2 - Delamination
Track car issues
1f928.png

Front tires on my M4,
285/30/19 Cup2 ZP 94Y delaminating after 42 laps. Great wear assides from the delaminating.
Rear 305/30/19 98Y wearing beautifuly 0 issues.
I read about this being a common issue with CUP2s on track.
I ran them 32psi max hot f&r,
outside temperature ~26celsius.
Car settings:
Front
-4.1 Camber
0.02 degrees toe in per side
550 lbs springs
1" suspension travel before bumpstops
Whiteline sway bar full soft setting
Apex SM10 19x10 + 25
15mm spacer
Rear
-1.9 Camber
0.10 degrees toe In per side
750 lbs springs
1" travel before bumpstops.
Oem sway bar
Apex SM10 19x11 + 44
10mm spacer
Big Front splitter plus rear wing.
PowerStop track day pads F&R (excellent excellent pads,0 fade, great feel)
Quick glance of the car in the attached video.
Car is not under steering nor over steering it’s planted.
Started 28psi cold F&R
I do 2 warmup laps 70-80% pace before going hard on them for the rest of the session.
Any ideas? Or are these not suitable for sustained track race pace 20min sessions."
Thanks for sharing. Looks similar to my wear. Mine is more aggressive peeling near the outer edge. Looking at the peeling pattern (front to back in the contact patch), it seems it's wear from holding the car in lateral Gs than power torquing (which would peel from back to front in the contact patch).

There has to be a solution because replacing the tire with tax, mounting, and balancing is very expensive. For now I'll keep the tires at OEM cold pressure(35F & 33R) and see if that would prevent it. The price, unfortunately, is less grip when the tires get hot.
 

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Looks like OEM size? You may want to go down to 19” or 18” if you are driving hard enough to roll the Cup 2’s. You may also want to do that driving on the track. You had to have been caning it.
 


AR-Delta

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Looks like pressure was too low for the alignment settings. Those pressures may work great but you would need to adjust the alignment to keep the outside shoulder cool
 
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Sam3

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Looks like pressure was too low for the alignment settings. Those pressures may work great but you would need to adjust the alignment to keep the outside shoulder cool
That's a good point. I suspect the front left wheel may have a positive camber. The rest of tires are all fine. The dealer service center performed wheel alignment on it a couple of months ago. May be they screwed something up.

Anyone can recommend a good alignment / camber adjustment shop in Southern CA that is knowledgeable in the Type R?
 
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Sam3

Sam3

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I saw this post recommended at the bottom of my post. Looks like @djhartm had the same issue with the Cup 2 on his Type R. After a weekend at the track the tire is shredded at the edges, no matter what tire pressure he tried, or adding negative camber, or heating the tire, or even changing his driving style to avoid understeer (a hallmark of front wheel drive cars).

https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/and-another-cup-2-bites-the-dust-after-1-weekend.50771/

Looks like the Cup 2 and the Type R don't go well together if you put its handling through its paces. This is very unfortunate because I love the handling of the car with the Cup 2 and the LE wheels. It's the tire that won the Type R its Nurburgring and Suzuka records.

I wonder what the LE owners think of this. Keep the car as a showpiece, drive it easy (defeats the purpose of the LE mods, which make it more track focused), or pay up $550 per tire every time you drive it the way it's meant to be driven.
 
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dwag0588

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I saw this post recommended at the bottom of my post. Looks like @djhartm had the same issue with the Cup 2 on his Type R. After a weekend at the track the tire is shredded at the edges, no matter what tire pressure he tried, or adding negative camber, or heating the tire, or even changing his driving style to avoid understeer (a hallmark of front wheel drive cars).

https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/and-another-cup-2-bites-the-dust-after-1-weekend.50771/

Looks like the Cup 2 and the Type R don't go well together if you put its handling through its paces. This is very unfortunate because I love the handling of the car with the Cup 2 and the LE wheels. It's the tire that won the Type R its Nurburgring and Suzuka records.

I wonder what the LE owners think of this. Keep the car as a showpiece, drive it easy (defeats the purpose of the LE mods, which make it more track focused), or pay up $550 per tire every time you drive it the way it's meant to be driven.
Most of them are probably thinking that they won't track on 20" oem wheels. There are many proven ways to fix this issue, and there aren't many good arguments for continuing to track with the OEM size.
 

jasonjm

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This is almost everyone’s experience with oem wheels and tire sizes on track. For every model year. When you are sending it, all kinds of accelerated wear issues. That’s why I go 18s now. Better performance, cheaper tires, better selection (even better size selection).
 


michaeljf

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Once my LE is run in I intend to track it but have no great desire to damage the OEM wheels on kerbs or if the Cup 2 shred themselves.

My solution is to put some Cup 2 Connect tyres in 245/35/19 on my FK 19x8.5" rims when the current PS4S wear out. I'm giving up about 1kg a corner compared to OEM BBS but it should also be a slightly better set up for my local track which is a bit bumpy.
 

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Sam, I ran 255/35R19 Cup 2's on NSX front rims (19" with +55 offset) for the track (as well as to get back and forth) last year. I did not experience what you have, but I believe the chunking issue is due to the factory front camber setting if you are driving the car really hard in the corners. Although @djhartm did increase his front camber by removing the front guide pins, that is really not enough for this kind of driving.
I had Hardrace front lower camber adjusters installed and went with position B to increase the camber by a 1 degree plus the extra .2-.3 the guide pins might get you. I'm running a front camber of -2.7. In post 62 of this link you will see pics of my front tires after the first 3 track days plus the trips to and from the track - https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/jeffs-build-for-occasional-light-track-use.51054/page-5
Definetley give your tires a chance to warm up as well before getting on them.

What I did find out though is the Cup 2's really don't like the wet at all and you have to watch them even on a damp track. Contemplating trying out some Goodyear supercar R3's next.
 
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Sam3

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Sam, I ran 255/35R19 Cup 2's on NSX front rims (19" with +55 offset) for the track (as well as to get back and forth) last year. I did not experience what you have, but I believe the chunking issue is due to the factory front camber setting if you are driving the car really hard in the corners. Although @djhartm did increase his front camber by removing the front guide pins, that is really really enough for this kind of driving.
I had Hardrace front lower camber adjusters installed and went with position B to increase the camber by a 1 degree plus the extra .2-.3 the guide pins might get you. I'm running a front camber of -2.7. In post 62 of this link you will see pics of my front tires after the first 3 track days plus the trips to and from the track - https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/jeffs-build-for-occasional-light-track-use.51054/page-5
Definetley give your tires a chance to warm up as well before getting on them.

What I did find out though is the Cup 2's really don't like the wet at all and you have to watch them even on a damp track. Contemplating trying out some Goodyear supercar R3's next.
@metal_driver Thank you for the info! I will read your thread in details. The NSX wheels were on my top list of wheel upgrade before I decided to go with the LE wheels. They're forged, lighter than the LE, and almost half the price. I've been reluctant to change OEM wheel dimensions because I really like the directness and crisp handling of the Type R in OEM form, and I know that increasing the sidewall will lose some of this edge. My thought process was Honda chose this size to win front wheel drive records on various circuits for a good reason. But it's finally dawning on me that to push the car handling close to its limit (I'm planning to track it), I will need to choose different wheels and tires.

Now I'm at a cross road. Do I get the NSX wheels at 19x9.5 or get other 18x9.5 wheels? Most Type R folks are using 18", and Honda Performance Development chose 18" for its Type R TC and TCR cars.

https://hpd.honda.com/Articles/Touring/TypeR

What I like about the NSX wheels:
  • The offset at +55 is very close to the OEM of +60. That should make the scrub radius close to OEM and reduce torque steer.
  • Cup 2 tire is widely available for 19" wheels, but hard to find for 18", and I really like the handling of the Cup 2. It's the most widely used tire to break records at the Nurburgring.

Some questions:
  1. How do the NSX wheels handle compared to OEM (e.g. responsiveness to steering input and precision)?
  2. How bad Is the torque steer in 2nd and 3rd gear?
  3. Did you need to modify anything to fit the NSX wheels, or they bolt right in?
  4. How does the increased negative camber affect traction in straight line (hard braking and acceleration)?
Thanks!
 

Learn2turn:)

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Aside from my fellow owners financial loss, there is something comical about seeing overpriced tires destroy themselves :)

Torque steer is AT MOST A SLIGHT TUG AT THE STEERING WHEEL and not a performance factor at all. Just remove the unwarranted concern entirely from your head.
Sponsored

 
 





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