MAPerformance FK8 Type R Intake PRE-RELEASE Information Post!

[Byron Sexton]

We have all seen the video of Hondata testing intakes... and none of those were made with stainless steel.

So to say its better than what Honda came up with is a MAJOR stretch, especially without dyno sheets to back that up.

Above could we get videos and dynos of this intake ? That probably would alleviate a lot of the communities issues. I for one would like to see sure a unique design proven to be capable of being the best intake on the market.
although most here have said SS does a poor job distributing the heat proving us wrong with through video and data would show your dedication towards making this Intake a winner.

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[WhiskeyTango]

Above could we get videos and dynos of this intake ? That probably would alleviate a lot of the communities issues. I for one would like to see sure a unique design proven to be capable of being the best intake on the market.
although most here have said SS does a poor job distributing the heat proving us wrong with through video and data would show your dedication towards making this Intake a winner.

23 years in sheet metal fabrication and the last 5 as an engineer and I can tell you once stainless absorbs heat, it doesn't get rid of it for quite some time.

There's a reason heat exchangers (radiators, intercoolers, AC condensers) are made out of aluminum. It dissipates heat faster. Cost is only part of the equation.

Look at all the inlet pipes on the market. Are any of them made out of stainless? Would you buy one that was?

 

[Dabeast]

They should have talked with Mishimoto about why they moved away from a metal intake box on their new intake system!! They've basically created an ugly ss oven in your engine bay ... No thanks!!

 

[boosted180sx]

Most All of the intakes that utilize a metal housing weren't very cool when it comes to IATs under longer run times which is why a lot of members here aren't so keen on the use of SS; they all seemed to heat soak.

I see that the IATs jump up 4 degrees (if memory serves, I read the OP this morning) in your testing going stock to upgraded intake and you state that this is likely due to the fact that the car is warmer since the upgraded intake is tested second. Have you tested the reverse scenario to show this point by testing the upgraded first, then the stock in the same way you did before to see an equivalent 4 degree IAT jump?

keep in mind, they showed IAT values which is measured at the MAP (post intercooler) and not IAT2 which measures at the MAF. IAT2 would show a much better indication of how well the intake is battling against heatsoak.

Above could we get videos and dynos of this intake ? That probably would alleviate a lot of the communities issues. I for one would like to see sure a unique design proven to be capable of being the best intake on the market.
although most here have said SS does a poor job distributing the heat proving us wrong with through video and data would show your dedication towards making this Intake a winner.

dont need videos to "prove" people wrong.

you can just look at the materials thermal properties to know that there are better materials that can be used for an intake arm/box in a car plagued with heat issues.

You can visibly see how much heat is under there when you have a vented hood like the Varis and can see all of the heat waves coming out of it. No matter how well sealed the box is, the heat under the hood is going to heat up the box which in return is going to raise the IATs.

imagine being inside of a garage without any insulation in the summer. You don't have to be directly under the heat to start sweating like a pig inside.

I for one is glad companies are still making parts for this car. However, there are almost 4 years of data from companies and end users that i believe it could have been designed better. But who am i to talk, i am no R&D engineer.

 

[Byron Sexton]

It's science and it make sense taking advice from experts like you guys is why forums are valuable.

Still I would like to see videos/Raw Data like you suggested at the IAT2 It is on the vendor for the burden of proof. More parts for this car is a great thing, more competition better for us enthusiasts.

 

[MarcusgibbS]

They should have talked with Mishimoto about why they moved away from a metal intake box on their new intake system!! They've basically created an ugly ss oven in your engine bay ... No thanks!!

I had emailed Mishimoto asking if they would be making an inlet pipe like prl. The response I got said they had zero plans. Obv I’m not the one they would let out the news to but maybe a hint before I bought the prl one

 

[Lust]

If @MAPerformance is confident in their intake, they can send me one to test on the street. I’d be able to compare it to my logs with my previous HVI setup and my current Eventuri setup. The HVI and Eventuri are arguably the two best options currently available. I think most people would cross shop this and the HVI though because of price

 

[WhiskeyTango]

I had emailed Mishimoto asking if they would be making an inlet pipe like prl. The response I got said they had zero plans. Obv I’m not the one they would let out the news to but maybe a hint before I bought the prl one

This image released by Mishi might say otherwise. That doesn't look like any other inlet pipe on the market right now...

 

[MAPerformance]

Most All of the intakes that utilize a metal housing weren't very cool when it comes to IATs under longer run times which is why a lot of members here aren't so keen on the use of SS; they all seemed to heat soak.

I see that the IATs jump up 4 degrees (if memory serves, I read the OP this morning) in your testing going stock to upgraded intake and you state that this is likely due to the fact that the car is warmer since the upgraded intake is tested second. Have you tested the reverse scenario to show this point by testing the upgraded first, then the stock in the same way you did before to see an equivalent 4 degree IAT jump?

That absolutely makes sense to me, when it comes to heat soak there are some factors that come into play in the system. No matter what material you make an intake from, at some point it's going to be nearly as hot as the engine bay around it. The main points that people focus on are how long will that take, and how long will it take to cool down. With stainless it will take much longer to heat soak than say aluminum or some composites, but once it's hot it will take much longer to cool. A give and a take here, what we also see on the modern cars (And specifically the Type R and SI) is that although people attribute the heat soak to the intake, in nearly all cases we have seen it be the intercooler that is the core component of high IATs. Now, there is an argument that higher temps from an intake heat soak the intercooler faster, but the margin of difference has normally been so minimal I would not believe that to be the case. So when saying "all metal boxes heat soak" I would just need to know more about each car before I can truly say that would be the reason, if that makes sense.

When we talk about heat soaking an intake, the fear seems to be that the air will then get hotter from the intake materials itself. But we have not seen that to be the case, between boundary layers, and how quickly the air is moving there is minimal and in many cases almost zero contact of the air to the tubes themselves. The largest impact is where the air is drawn from, so with no box and it being located right behind the radiator fans we would see a huge spike in IATs with the fans on. With the box, we had two targets. Pull fresh air from outside the car, and keep the box as large as possible to keep the air moving all around the filter.



I am fairly sure that we did, but I do not have that in any of my prepared data points. I can attempt to dig through all the info to find the comparisons, if I am being honest a delta of 4 degrees is very minimal and I would honestly say that changing conditions in the dyno room could cause that. (We cyle all the air through the room every 3-5 minutes to keep fresh air at all times, meaning we are slightly subject to external temps changing slightly)

-Daelen

 

[MAPerformance]

In terms of heat conduction

Aluminum: k - 200
SS 304: k - 14
Carbon Fiber epoxy composite: k - 5
ABS plastic: k - 0.21

So not nearly as bad as aluminum but SS304 IMO just adds unnecessary weight and heat when there are better materials available.

I went into this a bit on my above reply also but just wanted to touch on what was said here.

Obviously, the science behind the numbers you posted is absolutely correct, and I will not argue that at all. But in practical use, the air is not touching those components long enough for it to make much of an impact.

As for the weight, I absolutely understand that SS304 will be a bit heavier. We have also worked with cast aluminum for a few designs, and due to thickness needs run into the same weight issues. So we try to consider options, and one of the biggest ones is that we manufacture all our SS parts here in our US facility. That means we have tight control on quality, and the speed we can make them. When we outsource, there are just other hurdles to jump through. Not to say we wont do it, but we just have to take different approaches.

I am going to take every last bit of feedback from this thread, and take it to our team. If we can find solutions that we can make actionable from this, I will push to make changes as we see fit based on the consumer wants.

We do not live in a world where change is not possible, so we will learn, and push forward to get better each day.

-Daelen

 

[MAPerformance]

I - for one - really appreciate your company trying to make performance parts for the FK8. I understand it takes time, people, and above all money. We def. need companies like yours to help improve the FK8 platform.

Please take any criticism in this thread as ways to improve your product. We are all seeking the same; a performance part that is better than what Honda came up with.

We absolutely appreciate that.

I posted this above but wanted to respond to you specifically also as you took the time to respond.

We take no offense, these are public forums and everyone is welcome to an opinion. In the end, we value all the input as it will only make us better. I am going to take every last bit of feedback from this thread, and take it to our team. If we can find solutions that we can make actionable from this, I will push to make changes as we see fit based on the consumer wants.

We do not live in a world where change is not possible, so we will learn, and push forward to get better each day.

-Daelen

 

[MAPerformance]

We have all seen the video of Hondata testing intakes... and none of those were made with stainless steel.

So to say its better than what Honda came up with is a MAJOR stretch, especially without dyno sheets to back that up.

I would venture to say "Better than Honda" is a hard point to argue in many directions honestly. With today's Modern Torque model ECUs, just adding parts to make power is very hard. I am confident we can (And have) proved that Honda leaves some room on the table with the factory intake, but with specific needs in mind. We have some dyno sheets on the original post now, happy to locate more if need be!

Honda makes a great part, and we make a great part. I would say they have different use cases and hit those targets well when tested for their intended purpose.

-Daelen

 

[MAPerformance]

23 years in sheet metal fabrication and the last 5 as an engineer and I can tell you once stainless absorbs heat, it doesn't get rid of it for quite some time.

There's a reason heat exchangers (radiators, intercoolers, AC condensers) are made out of aluminum. It dissipates heat faster. Cost is only part of the equation.

Look at all the inlet pipes on the market. Are any of them made out of stainless? Would you buy one that was?

So I wrote up a bunch of previous replies touching on this, so I won't go crazy on it again and make yall re-read my typing. (Unless you want me to, that is)

You are spot on with much of what you are saying here, but there are also a few pieces to the puzzle that I feel might be missing when looking at it through your lens.

Aluminum does dissipate heat much faster and in products designed specifically to cool a fluid (Air) you will see it pull the heat out, absorb, and then dissipate it much better than stainless. In an intake, we are not looking for those same properties. The air has very minimal contact with the piping and spends so little time in the tube/box that the actual thermal transfer is near zero. The goal is as much air, as fast as possible in the name of power, and we utilize the intercooler to pull those temps down after the turbo compress's (Heats up) all the air we get in there. We designed the box to seal on the hood, and pull air from the factory intake scoop. Thus keeping the hot air from the engine bay out (Normally the main issue with large open filter intakes behind a radiator fan). If we are looking at cost, Aluminum is FAR cheaper than stainless, even more so in current times.

"Look at all the inlet pipes on the market. Are any of them made out of stainless?"

I would say that there are multiple reasons you don't see many others, but I feel they are not all "negatives". Cost is one, Stainless is an expensive raw material. Number two would be the difficulties of making parts from it, the specialized tooling (We bend all our own pipe, weld, etc in house), and the time/manpower needed to work it. We hand weld all the items, so that means we have a full staff of welders here making products all day every day. Obviously, that is our choice, and I'm not saying there are not other reasons to use different materials. But we work with the skill sets we have, to deliver the products we feel consumers will benefit from.

I have said it a few times now, but I will happily repeat myself. We will take every single piece of feedback here, and look to turn it into actionable items to improve with. I cant make any promises on what that outcome will be, but the effort will be put in to find solutions.

-Daelen

 

[WhiskeyTango]

So I wrote up a bunch of previous replies touching on this, so I won't go crazy on it again and make yall re-read my typing. (Unless you want me to, that is)

You are spot on with much of what you are saying here, but there are also a few pieces to the puzzle that I feel might be missing when looking at it through your lens.

Aluminum does dissipate heat much faster and in products designed specifically to cool a fluid (Air) you will see it pull the heat out, absorb, and then dissipate it much better than stainless. In an intake, we are not looking for those same properties. The air has very minimal contact with the piping and spends so little time in the tube/box that the actual thermal transfer is near zero. The goal is as much air, as fast as possible in the name of power, and we utilize the intercooler to pull those temps down after the turbo compress's (Heats up) all the air we get in there. We designed the box to seal on the hood, and pull air from the factory intake scoop. Thus keeping the hot air from the engine bay out (Normally the main issue with large open filter intakes behind a radiator fan). If we are looking at cost, Aluminum is FAR cheaper than stainless, even more so in current times.

"Look at all the inlet pipes on the market. Are any of them made out of stainless?"

I would say that there are multiple reasons you don't see many others, but I feel they are not all "negatives". Cost is one, Stainless is an expensive raw material. Number two would be the difficulties of making parts from it, the specialized tooling (We bend all our own pipe, weld, etc in house), and the time/manpower needed to work it. We hand weld all the items, so that means we have a full staff of welders here making products all day every day. Obviously, that is our choice, and I'm not saying there are not other reasons to use different materials. But we work with the skill sets we have, to deliver the products we feel consumers will benefit from.

I have said it a few times now, but I will happily repeat myself. We will take every single piece of feedback here, and look to turn it into actionable items to improve with. I cant make any promises on what that outcome will be, but the effort will be put in to find solutions.

-Daelen

Good points. I appreciate that you took the criticism with a level head and made a good and fair counterargument.
I've followed you guys since my DSM days and I've noticed a trend when it come to the use of this material with your parts. I always assumed (especially after the release of the 1.5T intake) that it was more of a "we're comfortable with, and our labor processes support/excel with the use of this material" kind of situation.

 

[MAPerformance]

They should have talked with Mishimoto about why they moved away from a metal intake box on their new intake system!! They've basically created an ugly ss oven in your engine bay ... No thanks!!

Im going to touch on this a bit below also, so wanted to quote both.

keep in mind, they showed IAT values which is measured at the MAP (post intercooler), and not IAT2 which measures at the MAF. IAT2 would show a much better indication of how well the intake is battling against heat soak.


don't need videos to "prove" people wrong.

you can just look at the material's thermal properties to know that there are better materials that can be used for an intake arm/box in a car plagued with heat issues.

You can visibly see how much heat is under there when you have a vented hood like the Varis and can see all of the heat waves coming out of it. No matter how well-sealed the box is, the heat under the hood is going to heat up the box which in return is going to raise the IATs.

imagine being inside of a garage without any insulation in the summer. You don't have to be directly under the heat to start sweating like a pig inside.

I for one is glad companies are still making parts for this car. However, there are almost 4 years of data from companies and end-users that I believe it could have been designed better. But who am i to talk, i am no R&D engineer.

IAT1 vs IAT2, you will have to pardon me, as with jumping around from our SI to the Type R, and Hondata to KTuner fairly often. My brain has IAT1 as MAF and IAT2 as charge pipe. You could absolutely be correct and I can check in with the team on data points with what we may have available to reference. BUT, the other point I wanted to bring up is that the MAF IAT is much more indicative of where the air is coming from and much less about the actual thermal transfer from a pipe of a box. Between the speed of the air, and the boundary layer in the tube we see very little temperature change from the materials themselves. As for the comment about the oven and the garage, it is a very good analogy but missing some key points. There will never be stagnant air (the Closest you would come to, is at a stoplight/sign on a hot day, but that's not a real indication of anything) in the airbox or tube. We are constantly cycling in fresh air from the factory intake scoop on the grill, so with the garage analogy we have to say that the only comparison would be if we added a large fan to cycle in air from outside the garage (Same with the oven) and in that case we will see a significant drop in the temps.


I will end this the same way I will on all of them, as we take none of this personally.
We will take every single piece of feedback here, and look to turn it into actionable items to improve with. I can't make any promises on what that outcome will be, but the effort will be put in to find solutions.

-Daelen

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