Let's Talk Spark Plugs

[jcivics]

High torque and high boost at low RPM is bad news. +3 is by no means too much boost, but there's obviously a lot more to the story here.

So originally, I got a Hondata from an authorized dealer. He tuned it on the dyno, then could not clear the cel. I called Hondata and they told me you have to use the 16-17 file , otherwise the oil dilution update is not included on the 16 file. So I gave my tuner that one because he never did a stock L15B7 cvt before. Next he tells me that if I want more power , we need to eliminate the cat. So I put in an rv6 catless. The same time I was changing that out, I happen to get maintenance minder B14 - spark plugs. I thought it was odd because I had changed them out at 70k and there was only the slightest tint of brown on them, otherwise fine. They were all at .030”-.032”. I believe that I must have mistorqued, because during the following days, was getting a buck, lack of power, but he had turned off misfire on the tune so no code. So I take it back in with the catless on it, assuming that because no cat, it was more open, and the misfire was only a natural occurrence. I read in Hondata help that when going catless, the cam angles must be adjusted slightly. So he did the second tune, again on the wrong file, about 5-6 pulls. Essentially, He tuned on a misfire. I went back and he did a quickie on the 16-17 file with no dyno, 2 clicks + on 2 maps for boost, and leaned out the fuel at 3500. I didn’t trust it because it didn’t feel as smooth or nearly as much power as the misfire tune, so I went to Hondata +6 Injen cai high octane base map. Ran great, but a couple days ago got massive misfire, car went practically dead, and this morning the Reservoir was dry.

I don’t know enough about it, but I was thinking that while we can hide the o2 code, the ecu thinks it’s rich and leans out the mixture, causing misfire.
Then I thought the coil packs might be going out because I was running > 15 psi with .032” gap. As PRL says here, they should be gapped smaller.
Then when I saw the coolant overflow dry, and multi flashing cel upon cold start, I knew it had to be a leak and burn off. I’ve seen it too many times on my old 6th gens. I can swap a gasket on those in a few hours now.

So he never told me what could happen if you tune hard on a misfire? Also, he never checked for spark, and simply moved the gauge to a new coil. He tuned it hard too, but never above 220 on the torque. I did see some runs where he torques it out hard in low gears. I asked him if that was ok, he assured me it was

That’s the best pic I can do to show the results

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[r.camlin]

So originally, I got a Hondata from an authorized dealer. He tuned it on the dyno, then could not clear the cel. I called Hondata and they told me you have to use the 16-17 file , otherwise the oil dilution update is not included on the 16 file. So I gave my tuner that one because he never did a stock L15B7 cvt before. Next he tells me that if I want more power , we need to eliminate the cat. So I put in an rv6 catless. The same time I was changing that out, I happen to get maintenance minder B14 - spark plugs. I thought it was odd because I had changed them out at 70k and there was only the slightest tint of brown on them, otherwise fine. They were all at .030”-.032”. I believe that I must have mistorqued, because during the following days, was getting a buck, lack of power, but he had turned off misfire on the tune so no code. So I take it back in with the catless on it, assuming that because no cat, it was more open, and the misfire was only a natural occurrence. I read in Hondata help that when going catless, the cam angles must be adjusted slightly. So he did the second tune, again on the wrong file, about 5-6 pulls. Essentially, He tuned on a misfire. I went back and he did a quickie on the 16-17 file with no dyno, 2 clicks + on 2 maps for boost, and leaned out the fuel at 3500. I didn’t trust it because it didn’t feel as smooth or nearly as much power as the misfire tune, so I went to Hondata +6 Injen cai high octane base map. Ran great, but a couple days ago got massive misfire, car went practically dead, and this morning the Reservoir was dry.

I don’t know enough about it, but I was thinking that while we can hide the o2 code, the ecu thinks it’s rich and leans out the mixture, causing misfire.
Then I thought the coil packs might be going out because I was running > 15 psi with .032” gap. As PRL says here, they should be gapped smaller.
Then when I saw the coolant overflow dry, and multi flashing cel upon cold start, I knew it had to be a leak and burn off. I’ve seen it too many times on my old 6th gens. I can swap a gasket on those in a few hours now.

So he never told me what could happen if you tune hard on a misfire? Also, he never checked for spark, and simply moved the gauge to a new coil. He tuned it hard too, but never above 220 on the torque. I did see some runs where he torques it out hard in low gears. I asked him if that was ok, he assured me it was

That’s the best pic I can do to show the results

Yeah that all sounds like a mess. Sounds like there was a lot wrong with just about everything that went down.

 

[jcivics]

IKR, he cost me a lot of money, and now my head gaskets blown. I hope his rsx drops a ball joint while going 100 around a narrow cliff

 

[D-RobIMW]

Not sure. I think +3 . In any case, I just know there’s a breach in the head gasket. It’s been hot as hell lately and that heat and the tune fkd it up. I’m getting a diag done soon, I’ll keep posted. Also my cars is at 100k miles. Driven hard.

I wouldn't say that.

The L15B engines seem to have pretty poorly machines mating surfaces, and I've seen head gasket leaks like the one you describe on completely stock cars, along with modified ones on very, very soft calibrations.

 

[r.camlin]

IKR, he cost me a lot of money, and now my head gaskets blown. I hope his rsx drops a ball joint while going 100 around a narrow cliff

Lol that's a little harsh. And there's no way to say whether or not the tune is 100% to blame. Your car does have 100k on it and has been "driven hard". It's likely a number of things adding up. Either way, like I said, it sounds like that entire situation was a little messy.

 

[jcivics]

I wouldn't say that.

The L15B engines seem to have pretty poorly machines mating surfaces, and I've seen head gasket leaks like the one you describe on completely stock cars, along with modified ones on very, very soft calibrations.

Thanks for the info, this is the type of stuff I’m looking for. It’s totally possibility, but now at the shop they’re like “oh you cleared the code, we can’t help you” like wtf am I supposed to do, Drive it 20 miles with a flashing cel and absolutely NO power? Wtf is wrong with these people. Look I told you it’s got a leaking head, now fix it before my warranties up.NOW

 

[charleswrivers]

uuummm, yeah, re-read my post please,

i wasn't talking about "older cars"

i thought that was clear when i said "in this day and age"

In this day and age... these cars will age and still need replacement parts. I wouldn't replace any iridium spark plugs w/o issue early myself... but there are plenty vehicles pushing 25 years old with iridium plugs that are a few sets in. Just because they last longer than copper or platinum plugs doesn't mean they last until the car around it rots. Their replacement is scheduled preventative maintenance. Hoses and belts should still be inspected and replaced when appropriate... but I agree one shouldn't replace them until they show wear unless it's a convenience item during other required maintenance.

Give it time. Just because our bright shiney new(ish) cars were made in 2016 or later doesn't mean they won't need some TLC eventually. I guess the lease and turn-in crowd might be able to exist on fluids and filters alone.

 

[jcivics]

I haven't messed w/the plugs on the Civic yet but...

My opening question would be if it ran fine before you pulled the plugs and checked/gapped them? If it ran fine before you pulled them... then it's something you touched. Whether it's a gap issue (not likely if they're gapped both the same and consistent with each other), a plug issue itself (damaged electrode when gapping is the most likely thing), poor contact between the 'boot' what plugs into the spark plug itself, a coil issue, or a wiring issue. The things you touched would have 1) The coil pack wiring harness 2) The coil pack/boot assembly off the plug and 3) the plug itself, which you then regapped. I would check that the wiring is tight on each coil pack, and that each boot is plugged into the plugs themselves. You can use plug grease as well... which helps make a seal to keep oxidation/debris/carbon junk in the boots/wiring harness. As to whether a coil is going bad... I don't know the spec of what the coils are... and it's unlikely a coil is going bad on such a new car, but you could use a multimeter to check the resistance of the coils against each other. If one is substantially different than the others, then it would be 'bad'. It just charges a magnetic field and works based on allowing an inductive kick to occur, where voltage ramps up to thousands of volts and when the supply voltage is removed, it polarity shifts to try to maintain the current flow but, as a result, ramps the voltage up immensely (inductors will make voltage do whatever is necessary to maintain current flow, capacitors kind of do the opposite... maintaining voltage by changing current however is necessary. Very dumbed down but they're just 2 different components that are used for various applications. Both 'store' electrical energy and are used to maintain/change voltage/current to suit a need). If the resistance is different... then the amount of energy 'stored' would be different... and the magnitude of the 'kick' (which turns into the sparking event) would be different, but it's resistance value affects the current flow it's ultimately trying to maintain in the system.

There's some other more off the wall stuff (ie one plug not threaded in very much so that it's not positioned in the same depth of the combustion chambers as the others) but so long as they're torqued in properly... but shouldn't be a thing.

There's some other things... but the problems I've had with cars have either been poor performance which required the plugs to be changed... or an outright 'failure' of a cylinder, making a V6/V8 car run on 5/7 cylinders (I've never had a dead cylinder in a 4 cylinder thus far). It makes the engine run very choppy with much less power. Those times it was due to a failure of a coil pack or a failure of the plastic clip that held the wiring to the coil pack. I have had injector problems... never a failed shut but some failed open ones which has made cars run poorly. If you had a misfire issue prior to trying to regap your spark plugs, that could also be your issue. The TSP or whatever it was that added a year to parts of the powertrain warranty and talked about misfired on the L15B7 powered 2016-2018 cars could also be injector related.

I may be outspoken on this... but I tend to 'not believe' in changing wiring often... and it's certainly based on condition and not age. As with most every electrical fault I've had to correct... 99% of the time, it's not interconnecting wiring except a the connection point (ie those plastic ends you connect/disconnect from the coil packs). Even when I've had those fail, I've just put new ends on them rather than replace the whole wire. I had the wires replaced in the Z when the engine was pull some years back... but a that point, the car had 90k miles and was about 20 years old. All I'm saying is... I wouldn't consider changing wires as a corrective action on such a new vehicle so long as the connections being made are good, even with 100k miles. Blame my view on years in the navy with wiring that subject to constant thermal events and a harsh environment that last for the life of the boat... plus being in homes with wiring that pre-dated rubber insulation (asbestos FTW) that was just fine. I think a lot of the ideas of wiring wear is based on older vehicles with distributors.

Still... if the car was fine before you touched it, there's a 99% change the problem is from something you touched. Plugs... boots/coils... wiring harness to the coils. Sorry if it's a little long.

Hey Charles, I think you may have something there...
So I took off the Hondata tune, returned to stock ecu, and put the catted oem pipe back.
Have not been able to reproduce the same misfire, and I think it’s because, and this is my new working theory:
The coil pack clips were not secure/or not seated correctly. So what about the missing coolant, right? Turns out, when I was changing the downpipe, one of the bolts is very close (parallel) with the water pipe... the pressure from the rachet moved the pipe slightly and because it’s a pressurized system, got a little squirt on the inlet/outlet o-ring seal side (not the pump side). I blew it off... so yeah, running hard with the Hondata tune, produced enough pressure to evaporate or leak fluids, and the misfire I’m chalking up to the plugs.

I’m running the UV leak test through it today to see if my assumptions are correct, and double and triple check the coil connectors for tightness.

Again thanks for your insight and sorry to hijack PRLs post like this but I was really worried the head sprung a leak.

Will keep updated. Thank you.

 

[charleswrivers]

Again thanks for your insight and sorry to hijack PRLs post like this but I was really worried the head sprung a leak.

Will keep updated. Thank you.

Sounds like good news and simple cheap/free fixes hopefully.

 

[jcivics]

Must’ve burped wrong when I did the flush, the manual says run the fan at least twice but maybe I didn’t have the heat gate open that’s why there was water sloshing around in the heater core in any case I drove it hard today and burped it afterwards went back a few hours later and there was no UV stains and the cap didn’t make a pressurized sound when released. Thing runs cherry. Woo!
The 6th gen was touchy like that too, had to burp it forever, real sensitive. So if anyone’s doing a coolant flush, I recommend running at least 3-4 fan cycles on a hot day, so when you run the heater it wont dissipate the heat and fan cycles will occur more frequently

 

[dallasjhawk]

lean and hot baby,

 

[jcivics]

lean and hot baby,

So how was it running lean?

 

[dallasjhawk]

So how was it running lean?

the tune.

 

[jcivics]

the tune.

He fk blew up my car didn’t he

 

[dallasjhawk]

He fk blew up my car didn’t he

do you have any datalogs from your flash pro of you driving and got WOT? or from the dyno tune?

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