Let’s Talk Brake Upgrades for Track Use

[Dave B]

Anybody using Carbotech? Could use the 1521 compound on the street and XP 8 for the track. I believe these 2 are compatible with each other. Not sure what the dealer charges for a set of 2020 rear pads.

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[Lust]

I tried finding more information on the other brake rotor / pad manufactures but I couldn't find much technical info on their offerings. If anyone has more info please do share! Let me know how I can make this thread better as well.

I'd like to share some of my personal insights and feedback on previous brake setups as well as my current setup.

Previous setups:

OEM 17-19 rotors - heavy, over heat easily, prone to cracking. I would not recommend.

OEM 17-19 pads - offer decent initial bite but overheat quickly and will leave uneven pad deposits. I would not recommend.

Girodisc 2 piece front rotors - much lighter than OEM, cools significantly better, offered better bite, increased longevity, etc. Solid rotors for track and would definitely recommend.

Project Mu Club Racer front pads - virtually no fade, strong initial bite, consistent bite, easy modulation, wears extremely fast. Would recommend for novice to intermediate drivers.

Raybestos ST43 - no fade, really strong bite, long lasting, decent/average modulation, expensive. Would recommend for advanced drivers

Current setup:

Paragon 2 piece front rotors - lightest rotor available, low replacement disc cost, great cooling, increased brake pad bite, virtually no chance of warping, endurance tested on team honda research west cars during Thunderhill 25 hours. These are by far the best rotors I've tested, even better than Girodisc IMO and have a much lower replacement rotor ring cost.

Paragon 2 piece larger rear rotor - increased brake torque, increased brake cooling/thermal capacity, lighter than OEM, improved bite, higher durability. I noticed a huge improvement in all aspects but primarily in terms of brake cooling and overall thermal capacity of the rotors. No pad overheating and no issues with brake bias.

Paragon R5 brake pads front - excellent brake modulation, very strong bite, no fade, long lasting. I really enjoy these pads and I would say they're a bit better than the ST43 and they're cheaper. Both pads are very good IMO but the R5 just makes more sense especially costing almost 100 USD less.

Project Mu Club Racer pads rear - long lasting, low dust, no squeal, high bite, no fade. A huge improvement over OEM rear pads since OEM wears like butter. Matches great with the ST43 and R5 front pads.

Future plans:

R7 front pads - wanting to give these a try to see if I can find a pad with a higher Mu and be more gentle on the rotors while being able to take more heat.

R5 rear pads - should pair well with the R7 front pads and maintain close to OEM brake bias. Independent testing has shown the R5 rear pads give an extra .2g in braking

 

[Dave B]

Thanks for the update.
2 questions and a comment
1) How does the increased rear braking with the Paragon front and rear pads increase total braking G's when the tires are the limiting factor? All cars are capable of locking all 4 wheels or triggering the anti locks at all 4 corners anyway. I would assume this improvement was compared to other pads that were starting to fade. Also what would work with a street type tire might not work with a Hoosier R7 etc. given the Hoosier's better grip.

2) Does anyone have any experience with Hawk DTC 30s at the rear? Apparently they have a moderate initial bite and some reasonable heat tolerance. They are also pretty cheap. Unfortunately being a Hawk product, they likely dust a lot.

Comment. I think lots of people don't realize that modulation is very important. Good threshold braking is usually more effective than just slamming on the antilocks and the more initial bite a pad has, the more difficult it is to modulate. It is always nice to have good initial bite on the street and people often feel this makes their brakes feel "strong". Also at the track you need much more heat tolerance and the pads will wear so that the initial bite needs to be good. OTOH, the ultra high initial bite of say a Hawk DTC70 or Carbotech/G-loc 20 should likely be reserved for race cars on slicks.

 

[Unity Performance]

Great write-up, really useful for the community! We're switching up our FK8's configuration for more circuit use, and will reference use your post along with earlier posts in the thread.

Among other pads we've tested for street and circuit use, a Front and Rear set of Project Mu Club Racer's are on order. Looking forward to sharing our findings, and learning more from you all!

 

[Lust]

Thanks for the update.
2 questions and a comment
1) How does the increased rear braking with the Paragon front and rear pads increase total braking G's when the tires are the limiting factor? All cars are capable of locking all 4 wheels or triggering the anti locks at all 4 corners anyway. I would assume this improvement was compared to other pads that were starting to fade. Also what would work with a street type tire might not work with a Hoosier R7 etc. given the Hoosier's better grip.

2) Does anyone have any experience with Hawk DTC 30s at the rear? Apparently they have a moderate initial bite and some reasonable heat tolerance. They are also pretty cheap. Unfortunately being a Hawk product, they likely dust a lot.

Comment. I think lots of people don't realize that modulation is very important. Good threshold braking is usually more effective than just slamming on the antilocks and the more initial bite a pad has, the more difficult it is to modulate. It is always nice to have good initial bite on the street and people often feel this makes their brakes feel "strong". Also at the track you need much more heat tolerance and the pads will wear so that the initial bite needs to be good. OTOH, the ultra high initial bite of say a Hawk DTC70 or Carbotech/G-loc 20 should likely be reserved for race cars on slicks.

I didn’t do the testing myself so I can’t fully answer that. It was done by a friend who actually races and competed in Super Lap Battle. The extra .2g in braking was comparing the R5 rear pads to Oem rear pads

 

[Dave B]

I didn’t do the testing myself so I can’t fully answer that. It was done by a friend who actually races and competed in Super Lap Battle. The extra .2g in braking was comparing the R5 rear pads to Oem rear pads

To be fair, I am sure the OEM pad after just a few laps is overheated and not working so it would be easy to show a fair improvement with the race pad setup. OTOH, when cold, I am sure the OEM pads were easily equivalent to the race pads they just can't do it for long.

People sometimes make the mistake of thinking a big brake kit will stop you faster. It doesn't but it does allow you to use the brakes repeatedly at high temps. Also when switching to a 4 piston fixed caliper there is less pedal play before brake actuation than on a regular sliding pin caliper which certainly gives a better feel but remember it is the tires that are the ultimate limiting factor in stopping a car.

 

[Lust]

To be fair, I am sure the OEM pad after just a few laps is overheated and not working so it would be easy to show a fair improvement with the race pad setup. OTOH, when cold, I am sure the OEM pads were easily equivalent to the race pads they just can't do it for long.

People sometimes make the mistake of thinking a big brake kit will stop you faster. It doesn't but it does allow you to use the brakes repeatedly at high temps. Also when switching to a 4 piston fixed caliper there is less pedal play before brake actuation than on a regular sliding pin caliper which certainly gives a better feel but remember it is the tires that are the ultimate limiting factor in stopping a car.

I highly doubt the OEM rear pad has the same coefficient of friction (Mu) as the R5 pads. It would be quite useful if someone has that info.

 

[Dave B]

Different pads have different profiles of Mu vs temperature. I am sure the OEM pads' coefficient of friction is just about zilch when it get hot as it does on the track meaning that the R5 rear pad will certainly outperform it and lead to a 0.2g improvement compared to a hot OEM rear pad.

 

[Dave B]

I have heard of Endless pads being suggested but they seem to have a huge variety of compounds. I have no experience or knowledge of this company. Open to any information.

BTW, just found out what front replacement pads cost from my local dealer. Price is outrageous so certainly won't be replacing anything ever for street use from Honda.

 

[Unity Performance]

I have heard of Endless pads being suggested but they seem to have a huge variety of compounds. I have no experience or knowledge of this company. Open to any information.

BTW, just found out what front replacement pads cost from my local dealer. Price is outrageous so certainly won't be replacing anything ever for street use from Honda.

Hey Dave, let us know if you wanted to try the StopTech Sport for street use. I've ran this on our Si with a Brembo kit, as well as our CTR. Used them year round, and did some light tracking as well.

https://unity-performance.com/products/stoptech-sport-front-brake-pads-set-civic-type-r

We're in Mississauga, so you can pick up or we can ship out to you

 

[bnadeau73]

I compete in an SCCA Solo stock class (G Street) in my 2017 Civic Si Coupe. The class rules require I keep the brake rotors and calipers like stock. Therefore, does anyone have track day or racing experience with stock style blank rotors, I am looking for ones that will hold up better than stock? I plan to do track day events where there will be heavy braking. For pads I am considering either Paragon R5 and Project Mu Club Racer or Paragon R7 and Paragon R5. I am looking for a good blank rotor to pair up with these pads. I used to daily drive, autocross, and do track days with Hawk DTC-70 and DTC-60 on my ‘04 G35, thus I’m ok with brake noise and dust, just looking for optimum performance both on the track and during autocross.

 

[Lust]

I compete in an SCCA Solo stock class (G Street) in my 2017 Civic Si Coupe. The class rules require I keep the brake rotors and calipers like stock. Therefore, does anyone have track day or racing experience with stock style blank rotors, I am looking for ones that will hold up better than stock? I plan to do track day events where there will be heavy braking. For pads I am considering either Paragon R5 and Project Mu Club Racer or Paragon R7 and Paragon R5. I am looking for a good blank rotor to pair up with these pads. I used to daily drive, autocross, and do track days with Hawk DTC-70 and DTC-60 on my ‘04 G35, thus I’m ok with brake noise and dust, just looking for optimum performance both on the track and during autocross.

The R7 compound probably wouldn’t be well suited for AutoX as it needs some temp to perform its best. I’d say try a staggered setup like R5 and P3 rear. PMU CR is decent but the Paragon pads are much better. You can try centric blanks or see if Paragon can make you a set of blanks. Directional cooling is quite important.

 

[bnadeau73]

The R7 compound probably wouldn’t be well suited for AutoX as it needs some temp to perform its best. I’d say try a staggered setup like R5 and P3 rear. PMU CR is decent but the Paragon pads are much better. You can try centric blanks or see if Paragon can make you a set of blanks. Directional cooling is quite important.

So, you would recommend the P3 over the club racer? Earlier posts that I read indicated that the club racer was the appropriate pairing with the R5.

 

[Lust]

So, you would recommend the P3 over the club racer? Earlier posts that I read indicated that the club racer was the appropriate pairing with the R5.

I’d do the P3 but the Club Racer will also work. I ran the CR cause I had it on hand. I’ll be moving to R7/R5 for track use soon.

 

[bnadeau73]

I’d do the P3 but the Club Racer will also work. I ran the CR cause I had it on hand. I’ll be moving to R7/R5 for track use soon.

Ok, thanks! Where is a good place to get Paragon pads?

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