Let’s Talk Brake Upgrades for Track Use

[Lust]

Hey all,

I know we have a lot of compiled threads for numerous topics but I don’t think I’ve seen one in regards to brake upgrades. Brakes are a very important aspect when thinking about driving around a circuit. The stock FK8 brakes are decent but can be easily out grown after a few track days. Depending on your model year, the brake pads and rotors can’t handle the repeated hard stops that is seen on the race track. The brake package simply wasn’t designed to be constantly operated at those temperatures.

Why are the stock pads bad for track?

Honda designed these pads to be driven primarily on the street with some track capability. The optimal thermal range is rather low and can be easily overheated on track. This can cause the pads to smear or leave pad deposits on the rotor. A common misconception is warped rotors but is actually severe pad deposits causing vibrations or pulsing.

Why are the stock rotors bad for track?

Honda chose a single piece drilled front rotor. The theory behind this is to help release gasses between the disc and pad. This has a severe drawback though, it is more prone to cracking. Honda took feedback from the track enthusiast community and moved to a two piece blank rotor. The 17-19 model year rotors are approx 24-25 lbs per rotor which is quite heavy. We want to reduce the rotational/unsprung mass of the car as much as possible without sacrificing thermal capacity. Lighter is better to a certain extent but too light could mean a lower thermal ceiling.

Why is Honda Dot3 fluid bad for track?

This fluid is designed to have better longevity for street driving and is not intended to see the consistent high temps of track driving . The wet and dry boiling points are much lower compared to Dot4 brake fluids. Upgrading to a Dot4 fluid will increase the brake consistency and pedal feel at the cost of more frequent fluid changes and higher fluid cost.

Pad Upgrade Options

Endless

Carbotech

Ferrodo

GLoc

Hawk

Project Mu

Club Racer​

• Mu .42 - .55
• Temp range: 572F - 1472F

999​

• Mu .42 - .59
• Temp range: 392F - 1472F

Paragon

P3 compound​

• Mu .34 - .37
• Temp range: ambient - 1112F

R5 compound​

• Mu .40 - .43
• Temp range 212F - 1382F

R7 compound​

• Mu .48 - .53
• Temp range 212F - 1562F

Raybestos

Rotor Upgrade Options

AP Racing 2 piece J-hook front rotors

• 24 lbs per rotor (.5 less than stock)
• 72 directional cooling vanes
• 350x34 (+2mm over stock)
• 6061 aluminum fully floating hat

Ballade Motorsports 2 piece rotors

• 22 lbs per rotor (-2.5 from stock)
• Optional slotted, drilled, or j hook disc
• Billet aluminum hat
• ??? Directional cooling vanes

Girodisc 2 piece slotted front rotors

• 21.1 lbs per rotor (3lbs less than stock)
• 48 directional cooling vanes
• 6061 aluminum fully floating hat
• Proprietary cast iron disc

Girodisc 2 piece slotted rear rotors

• 8.8 lbs per rotor (3lbs less than stock)
• 6061 aluminum fully floating hat
• Proprietary cast iron disc

Paragon 2 piece slotted front rotors

• 20.5 lbs per rotor (4lbs less than stock)
• 48 direction cooling vanes
• 6061 aluminum fully floating hat
• CM-250 high carbon alloy cast iron disc

Paragon 2 piece slotted rear rotors

• 8.8 lbs per rotor (3lbs less than stock)
• 6061 aluminum fixed hat
• CM-250 high carbon alloy cast iron disc

Paragon 2 piece larger rear rotor upgrade kit

• 10.3 lbs per rotor (1.5lbs less than stock)
• 45mm larger rotor diameter (350x11mm)
• Increase in brake torque
• Designed to work flawlessly with factory ABS
• 6061 aluminum fixed hat
• CM-250 high carbon alloy cast iron disc

Project Mu Pro SCR 2 piece front rotors

• Pre bedded from Project Mu

Rolloface 2 piece slotted front rotors

• 25.9 lbs per rotor (1.5lbs heavier than stock)
• +1mm thickness over stock
• 6061 aluminum floating hat

Fluid Upgrade Options

ATE Type 200

• Wet boiling point 396F
• Dry boiling point 536F

Castrol SRF

• Wet boiling point 518F
• Dry boiling point 608F

Endless RF650

• Wet boiling point 424F
• Dry boiling point 616F

Motul RBF600

• Wet boiling point 421F
• Dry boiling point 594F

Motul RBF660

• Wet boiling point 399F
• Dry boiling point 622F

Project Mu G Four

• Wet boiling point 430F
• Dry boiling point 635F

Posting this as a rough draft for now and will update this with data and specs for each product.

Please share any products, specs, data, or insights you might have so we can compile it to one thread. Thanks for reading

 

[17RGuy]

Do we have any legitimate track experience on the 2020+ oem rotors? I know their are some track enthusiasts who want to stick with “blanks.”

 

[dsm_mikey]

I will be running Raybestos ST43 pads F & R,
Castrol SRF fluid w stock 2021 rotors.

We run the st43s and srf fluid in our endurance racing car...solid.

I also run ST43s in my GT350R and my 350Z. Love this pad compound. I have tried Hawk, Carbotech, and GLOC over the years. The Raybestos ST43 are the best feeling, can be modulated, and are the longest lasting of the bunch.

I will provide feedback once I hit some track days at Road America and Autobahn this spring...

 

[b2point0h]

I was able to get 7 track days (Plus 3 autocross days) on OEM brake fluid before I ended up boiling it. I ran 5 track days on stock rotors & pads with no real issues, granted not heavy braking zones.

Now running same stock rotors, PMU Club Racer pads and will be switching to PMU G-Four brake fluid (Didn't see that in the list).

Also running stock brake lines and don't feel like they need to be upgraded yet. I'm also not running those titanium shims.

Eventually when the time comes to replace rotors, i'll be going with the Paragon 2-piece rotors, stock rear sizing, not the big brake upgrade.

 

[Lust]

I was able to get 7 track days (Plus 3 autocross days) on OEM brake fluid before I ended up boiling it. I ran 5 track days on stock rotors & pads with no real issues, granted not heavy braking zones.

Now running same stock rotors, PMU Club Racer pads and will be switching to PMU G-Four brake fluid (Didn't see that in the list).

Also running stock brake lines and don't feel like they need to be upgraded yet. I'm also not running those titanium shims.

Eventually when the time comes to replace rotors, i'll be going with the Paragon 2-piece rotors, stock rear sizing, not the big brake upgrade.

Definitely track dependent I think. If you’re at a track like Laguna, I’m sure you’ll boil the Dot3 fluid within a day. Yes I’ll add the PMu G Four fluid in a bit. I’ll be adding more products as well as their specs like temp range, boiling points, mu, weight, etc.

 

[b2point0h]

Definitely track dependent I think. If you’re at a track like Laguna, I’m sure you’ll boil the Dot3 fluid within a day. Yes I’ll add the PMu G Four fluid in a bit. I’ll be adding more products as well as their specs like temp range, boiling points, mu, weight, etc.

100% agree. Buttonwillow, Streets, Chuckwalla & Big Willow aren't heavy like the nor-cal tracks are.

Thanks for putting this together, very helpful Michael!

 

[-JP-]

I'm not a mechanic. Also, I just finsihed a great cup of coffee...

Since first trackday in this car November 2017, braking have been the biggest challenge and have learned so much along the way. It's been great. Pads smearing, thinking I had warped OEM and Girodisc rotors. Pedal sinking to the floor a few times at BW T12, Laguna T8 and T11. It's been a long road and finally found the combination that works for me. Your results may vary and there is a lot of good equipment out there.

Pad smearing was a pain in the ass to address. I would hone my rotors by hand to remove the thick layer of deposits. You shouldn't resurface cross drilled rotors. Elton helped me and lightly resurface my giros that last round. I switched to W5 pads and the pad smearing was a thing of the past. Braking increased dramatically and took me a couple sessions to relearn the car's braking.

Pedal dropping to the floor when approaching a tricky corner is scary AF. Switched to Motul660 in combination with pad swap and haven't had the pedal drop to floor since and I'd like to think I'm coming into the corners a little faster these days.

Been through a healthy life with Girodisc rotors and a couple sets of W5 pads which worked great together. Moved on to Paragon since Girodisc has been consistently non-responsive when reaching out to them with questions and for ring replacements. Assumed it was because I'm nobody with a Honda. Godfrey @ Paragon has been incredibly helpful and fortunately his product matches his top notch level of service. Paragon had a great sale and picked up another pair of W5/R5 pads. This combo from Paragon has been outstanding.

Added titanium shims from @fk8partsusa at some point along the way and have been surviving the abuse. Somehow through magic that I dont understand, I hear they help with heat.

Still on original OEM rear rotors after 25 trackdays and still measure within spec. 17 of those trackdays were on OEM 2017 rear pads and went through 4 sets. After speaking with Graham, he and his team's testing concluded that upgrading the rear pads will provide an additional .2g of braking force. Immediately switched to W5 in the rear and agree that braking has increased. These pads last longer that OEM as well. Plan on keeping the party going and replace the rears with OEM, but the new Paragon rear kit has peaked my interest.

Brake maintenance is the most important of my routine. After every event, I inspect and measure rotors and pads to make sure they are within spec. Some tracks burn through pads quicker than others. Brake bleeding is done after inspection to ensure there is no air in the lines and helps flush the 660 through he system. I guestimate this routine flushes the DOT4 660 through brake system every 6-7 trackdays.

I'm still on OEM brake lines for now. Once the car hits 50k-60k I may upgrade as preventative maintenance.

Everyday is a school day and am still learning...

 

[spyder57]

I'm not a mechanic. Also, I just finsihed a great cup of coffee...

Since first trackday in this car November 2017, braking have been the biggest challenge and have learned so much along the way. It's been great. Pads smearing, thinking I had warped OEM and Girodisc rotors. Pedal sinking to the floor a few times at BW T12, Laguna T8 and T11. It's been a long road and finally found the combination that works for me. Your results may vary and there is a lot of good equipment out there.

Pad smearing was a pain in the ass to address. I would hone my rotors by hand to remove the thick layer of deposits. You shouldn't resurface cross drilled rotors. Elton helped me and lightly resurface my giros that last round. I switched to W5 pads and the pad smearing was a thing of the past. Braking increased dramatically and took me a couple sessions to relearn the car's braking.

Pedal dropping to the floor when approaching a tricky corner is scary AF. Switched to Motul660 in combination with pad swap and haven't had the pedal drop to floor since and I'd like to think I'm coming into the corners a little faster these days.

Been through a healthy life with Girodisc rotors and a couple sets of W5 pads which worked great together. Moved on to Paragon since Girodisc has been consistently non-responsive when reaching out to them with questions and for ring replacements. Assumed it was because I'm nobody with a Honda. Godfrey @ Paragon has been incredibly helpful and fortunately his product matches his top notch level of service. Paragon had a great sale and picked up another pair of W5/R5 pads. This combo from Paragon has been outstanding.

Added titanium shims from @fk8partsusa at some point along the way and have been surviving the abuse. Somehow through magic that I dont understand, I hear they help with heat.

Still on original OEM rear rotors after 25 trackdays and still measure within spec. 17 of those trackdays were on OEM 2017 rear pads and went through 4 sets. After speaking with Graham, he and his team's testing concluded that upgrading the rear pads will provide an additional .2g of braking force. Immediately switched to W5 in the rear and agree that braking has increased. These pads last longer that OEM as well. Plan on keeping the party going and replace the rears with OEM, but the new Paragon rear kit has peaked my interest.

Brake maintenance is the most important of my routine. After every event, I inspect and measure rotors and pads to make sure they are within spec. Some tracks burn through pads quicker than others. Brake bleeding is done after inspection to ensure there is no air in the lines and helps flush the 660 through he system. I guestimate this routine flushes the DOT4 660 through brake system every 6-7 trackdays.

I'm still on OEM brake lines for now. Once the car hits 50k-60k I may upgrade as preventative maintenance.

Everyday is a school day and am still learning...

Appreciate the datapoints. Regarding the Girodisc vs Paragon rotors - any difference in performance or life that you've noticed so far? I'm tempted by the Girodiscs due to their performance and life - JDMStig has reported 30 track days with plenty of life remaining.

 

[Lust]

Appreciate the datapoints. Regarding the Girodisc vs Paragon rotors - any difference in performance or life that you've noticed so far? I'm tempted by the Girodiscs due to their performance and life - JDMStig has reported 30 track days with plenty of life remaining.

Ive run the Girodisc rotors before with Pmu CR pads and I’ve tried them with ST43 pads. The rotors held up well. The hat would get discolored and turn pink from the heat. His 30+ track days wouldn’t be too comparable to us here in NorCal because our tracks are harder on brakes. I would say the Paragon rotors are just as good if not better than the Girodisc while coming in at a cheaper operating cost. Not to mention they’re a half pound lighter per corner.

 

[spyder57]

Ive run the Girodisc rotors before with Pmu CR pads and I’ve tried them with ST43 pads. The rotors held up well. The hat would get discolored and turn pink from the heat. His 30+ track days wouldn’t be too comparable to us here in NorCal because our tracks are harder on brakes. I would say the Paragon rotors are just as good if not better than the Girodisc while coming in at a cheaper operating cost. Not to mention they’re a half pound lighter per corner.

Thanks that's helpful. Where are you seeing them for cheaper? Kns has the giro discs for $720 with replacements running $520. I know paragon runs 10% specials from time to time but that's almost equal pricing.

 

[Lust]

Thanks that's helpful. Where are you seeing them for cheaper? Kns has the giro discs for $720 with replacements running $520. I know paragon runs 10% specials from time to time but that's almost equal pricing.

I was looking at direct replacement cost from Giro which is 800 for rotors and 600 for replacement discs. I think the Paragons are still cheaper depending on which promos they’re running.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that they did R&D with the Team Honda Research West endurance cars and their rotors were used at the 25 hours of Thunderhill. Paragon have been consistently responding to all of my questions where I couldn’t even get an email response on how to purchase replacement discs and hardware from Giro.

 

[AlphaDigital]

It might be worth mentioning that DBA released a set of slotted rotors for our cars. i wonder how these would fare.

https://www.kamispeed.com/products/dba-2017-honda-civic-type-r-fk8-front-slotted-4000-series-rotor

 

[Lust]

It might be worth mentioning that DBA released a set of slotted rotors for our cars. i wonder how these would fare.

https://www.kamispeed.com/products/dba-2017-honda-civic-type-r-fk8-front-slotted-4000-series-rotor

I thought I read somewhere that DBA is just rebranded centrics. I think these would be a decent option but wouldn’t perform nearly as well as the top tier 2 piece rotor options like AP racing, Paragon, or Girodisc. The DBA doesn’t have directional cooling vanes and I’m sure the metallurgy isn’t on par.

 

[spyder57]

I thought I read somewhere that DBA is just rebranded centrics. I think these would be a decent option but wouldn’t perform nearly as well as the top tier 2 piece rotor options like AP racing, Paragon, or Girodisc. The DBA doesn’t have directional cooling vanes and I’m sure the metallurgy isn’t on par.

They're absurdly expensive as well at $400 a pair for a single piece rotor. At that price there's no good reason to just upgrade to one of the 2 piece options you mentioned.

 

[AlphaDigital]

They're absurdly expensive as well at $400 a pair for a single piece rotor. At that price there's no good reason to just upgrade to one of the 2 piece options you mentioned.

thats a good point, I didnt even realize that. Thats crazy.

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