Let’s Talk Brake Upgrades for Track Use

[Burt]

My bet is you may be at the limit of the pad lapping for multiple 20 minute sessions, but thats just a guess. Ive seen good reviews on them too from S2000 and BRZ/FRS owners but I think things that work against us are

- heavier chassis
- more horsepower (higher speeds in some cases to slow down from)
- stock non vented 2pc rotors

You could very well be overheating the pad without having slotted rotors.

Just guesses though.

I'd say the bulk of it is that these cars have to scrub a lot more energy than the S2K/BRZ platforms. The mass hurts, but the energy the pads have to convert to heat goes up exponentially with speed, these cars can freight train the S2K and BRZ. It sounds like I'll be glad I'm planning on the Paragons rather than the Mu pads next month.

Unrelated, I haven't tried them on track yet but my 265/245 reverse stagger setup was pretty sublime at an autox on Saturday. The only cars that outran me were a new M4 comp coupe (500 hp and awd) a crazy V8 swapped Miata, and a very well driven RX7.

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[Dave B]

I've been experiencing some severe fading on track after doing a pad slap on the stock 2021 two piece rotors with Project Mu Club Racers. After 3 or 4 hot-ish laps, the foot pressure I need to apply to trigger ABS is significantly higher. I keep having to move my brake zones back and back, and had to use the brake run-offs in two of the tracks that I visit (not a fun experience).

Is this just typical fade? Or is it due to my pad slap onto the stock rotors instead of doing a full rotor + pad swap? I don't feel like it's the pad, because these pads seem to be very well received amongst the local Type R community. I've also swapped my brake fluid to Castrol SRF.

I have the Paragon titanium shims, and R5 pads, so wanted to swap to the Paragon rotors next time it's time for a brake job, which will leave me with your setup exactly. I might be misunderstanding your post, but it seems like this combo would be quite suitable for regular track use, with minimal fading and good longevity for 20 minute lapping sessions, right?

I have used Castrol SRF for years as my fluid of choice and have had no issue with brake fade with the Paragon R5 pads up front (I use Hawk DTC 30s in the rear but they may be a bit of overkill). I would suspect your pad is the issue with fade.

As for the streetability of the R5 pad, they are streetable but I tend to switch between the R5 for track use and Hawk 5.0 pads on the street. I would think a lot of street miles on the R5 pads would either wear the rotor or the pad quickly due to the low temps. The two compounds, R5 and Hawk 5.0, are not completely compatible and switching directly from the R5 to the Hawk 5.0 leads to some brake shuddering. I can't be bothered to change the rotors every time I switch the pads even though that would be ideal. To get around this, I usually mount the R5 pads on the car a day or so before a track event and try to bed them in on the street as best I can but continue to be aware that final bedding in will likely have to wait for the first session of the track day. At the end of the day, I drive home with the R5s still mounted and with the cool temps, it seems to remove the transfer layer which means when I re-install the Hawk 5.0 there is no issue with shudder.

On another note, if you go to a Carbotech/G-loc race pad, you may want to use one of their street pads as they don't seem to play well with other manufacturers pads. I am just quoting others on this as I have not used these pads on the CTR.

 

[AlphaDigital]

I have used Castrol SRF for years as my fluid of choice and have had no issue with brake fade with the Paragon R5 pads up front (I use Hawk DTC 30s in the rear but they may be a bit of overkill). I would suspect your pad is the issue with fade.

As for the streetability of the R5 pad, they are streetable but I tend to switch between the R5 for track use and Hawk 5.0 pads on the street. I would think a lot of street miles on the R5 pads would either wear the rotor or the pad quickly due to the low temps. The two compounds, R5 and Hawk 5.0, are not completely compatible and switching directly from the R5 to the Hawk 5.0 leads to some brake shuddering. I can't be bothered to change the rotors every time I switch the pads even though that would be ideal. To get around this, I usually mount the R5 pads on the car a day or so before a track event and try to bed them in on the street as best I can but continue to be aware that final bedding in will likely have to wait for the first session of the track day. At the end of the day, I drive home with the R5s still mounted and with the cool temps, it seems to remove the transfer layer which means when I re-install the Hawk 5.0 there is no issue with shudder.

On another note, if you go to a Carbotech/G-loc race pad, you may want to use one of their street pads as they don't seem to play well with other manufacturers pads. I am just quoting others on this as I have not used these pads on the CTR.

Wouldnt it make more sense to use the P3 pad for street driving rather than switching to Hawk? That may solve or help your issue with shuddering

 

[moonrobin]

I have used Castrol SRF for years as my fluid of choice and have had no issue with brake fade with the Paragon R5 pads up front (I use Hawk DTC 30s in the rear but they may be a bit of overkill). I would suspect your pad is the issue with fade.

As for the streetability of the R5 pad, they are streetable but I tend to switch between the R5 for track use and Hawk 5.0 pads on the street. I would think a lot of street miles on the R5 pads would either wear the rotor or the pad quickly due to the low temps. The two compounds, R5 and Hawk 5.0, are not completely compatible and switching directly from the R5 to the Hawk 5.0 leads to some brake shuddering. I can't be bothered to change the rotors every time I switch the pads even though that would be ideal. To get around this, I usually mount the R5 pads on the car a day or so before a track event and try to bed them in on the street as best I can but continue to be aware that final bedding in will likely have to wait for the first session of the track day. At the end of the day, I drive home with the R5s still mounted and with the cool temps, it seems to remove the transfer layer which means when I re-install the Hawk 5.0 there is no issue with shudder.

On another note, if you go to a Carbotech/G-loc race pad, you may want to use one of their street pads as they don't seem to play well with other manufacturers pads. I am just quoting others on this as I have not used these pads on the CTR.

Wow thanks for the fast and detailed response! Like @AlphaDigital above, I'm also curious to why you swap the R5s out. I'm pretty lazy, and would probably just street drive with them if possible. Noise for me isn't a concern, just race car things. However, if it's an issue of longevity (of the pads or rotors), or safety, then I'll do the same. Thanks again! I'll update ya'll on the fading issue after I chew through these Project Mu Club Racers.

Right now I'm cross shopping between the OEM rotors and Paragon rotors for my next brake job. Would you say the Paragon rotors are an upgrade over the facelifted 2-piece rotors from Honda?

 

[AlphaDigital]

Wow thanks for the fast and detailed response! Like @AlphaDigital above, I'm also curious to why you swap the R5s out. I'm pretty lazy, and would probably just street drive with them if possible. Noise for me isn't a concern, just race car things. However, if it's an issue of longevity (of the pads or rotors), or safety, then I'll do the same. Thanks again! I'll update ya'll on the fading issue after I chew through these Project Mu Club Racers.

Right now I'm cross shopping between the OEM rotors and Paragon rotors for my next brake job. Would you say the Paragon rotors are an upgrade over the facelifted 2-piece rotors from Honda?

If youve got the extra cash for it, Paragon all the way. It seems like there are a ton of successful use cases of those rotors on the track from people of a variety of skill levels, pad combinations, and more. The slotted rotors are an upgrade over blanks imo. You wouldnt be disappointed.

 

[Dave B]

Wouldnt it make more sense to use the P3 pad for street driving rather than switching to Hawk? That may solve or help your issue with shuddering

I may well use the P3 at the back in the future. As it turns out I use Hawk DTC 30s at the back and they have lasted forever i.e 2 full seasons although I switch back and forth between these for the track and Hawk 5.0 for the street. They don't like being cold though and I think they may be a bit too aggresive as the rear end of the car dances around a lot in high speed brake zones for the first 1 or 2 applications. Much improved when they are warmer. I also don't think I have any issue with brake shudder from the rears, only the fronts. BTW, I only run with long push VSA off in R+ mode so the rear brakes aren't actually asked to do much.

Also agree that Paragon 2 piece rotors are better than the OEM 2 piece rotors and significantly cheaper (at least here in Canada). Can't see using 1 piece rotors anymore. Been there and done that.

As for running R5 pads on the street, they really need a higher operating temp to work well and the transfer layer will wear off anyway at low temps and speeds. Changing pads is very easy. Changing rotors is more work.

 

[Unity Performance]

Thought I could provide another data point. I have been using Paragon rotors and R5 pads courtesy of Unity Performance. Here is what the rotor looks like after 16 track days, about 2K street miles and 2 sets of R5 pads. 10 of the track days are on tracks that are really hard on brakes.The rings still measure 31.6 mm at their thinnest, but the cracks are getting pretty long now so time for some new rings. I think this is really good wear, especially coming from a Corvette where rotors rarely last more than 2 days. Tires have been an assortment of 100 and 200 UTQG ratings. No issue with grabbing or uneven braking and no, I am not a novice.

Hi Dave,

Love seeing this picture after our discussion at my shop! You've thoroughly tested these, Paragon and I can't ask for more The hard anodized hats and hardware look perfectly good for the next 16 track days and beyond. I know you're a huge fan of the R5's, but let me know if you'd like to give R7's a try next year when your next set of R5's that you purchased with these rings wears down

Humza

 

[bicbaws]

I ran PMU CR this past weekend at The Ridge Motorsports Park. I'm happy to report with the new combination of PMU CRs, Castrol SRF, Titanium Shims, and SS Brake Lines, I had no failures this weekend. The brake pedal did get VERY soft, but I was doing hot lap after hot lap as the track isn't as hard on the brake compared to the last track I was at. It went soft, I backed off and did a cooldown lap. Shockingly, the feel came back after another session.

I didn't turn off VSA/TC and the rear pads still have plenty of life.

Update to this, I went back to RMP on Oct 2 on the exact same setup. To add to @moonrobin 's experience, I found that with the now thinner pads and more worn tires, it did not equate to a very fun track experience. In hindsight, I should have just bled the brakes with SRF again, but SRF is supposed to be to good for a few track days.

Once again, I found myself facing fade. This time it's not okay. I found that I was only able to do 3 hot laps in a 20 min (6-7 lap) session, before I'd have to back off. On Sept 18, I was able to get away with not doing any cool down laps and I had VSA on. However, I suppose with the hotter temps on Oct 18 (weird for PNW), it was tougher on the car. I had to turn off VSA in the afternoon, after I cooked the rear pads - a whole smoke show. Then in the next session, I proceeded to cook the front brakes. These EBC blanks have turned out to be not a good idea. More brake cooling is needed.

I know this isn't the correct thread for this, but am I right in thinking that worn out tires can contribute to poor braking performance? I'm thinking since it can't grip to stop as fast, the brakes have to work harder / I have to brake longer in order to make the same braking zone, thus overheating them.

I'm definitely interested in trying new pads for the next season. The PMU CRs work well for my friend, who did a 1:54 at RMP, but I'd prefer something with a little more bite. I'd rather use less pedal and stop faster than use more pedal and second guess on if I'll scrub enough speed for the turn.

His 1:54 at RMP on (also worn) PMU CRs + Girodisc

 

[Dave B]

. In hindsight, I should have just bled the brakes with SRF again, but SRF is supposed to be to good for a few track days.

Once again, I found myself facing fade. This time it's not okay. I found that I was only able to do 3 hot laps in a 20 min (6-7 lap) session, before I'd have to back off. On Sept 18, I was able to get away with not doing any cool down laps and I had VSA on. However, I suppose with the hotter temps on Oct 18 (weird for PNW), it was tougher on the car. I had to turn off VSA in the afternoon, after I cooked the rear pads - a whole smoke show. Then in the next session, I proceeded to cook the front brakes. These EBC blanks have turned out to be not a good idea. More brake cooling is needed.

I know this isn't the correct thread for this, but am I right in thinking that worn out tires can contribute to poor braking performance? I'm thinking since it can't grip to stop as fast, the brakes have to work harder / I have to brake longer in order to make the same braking zone, thus overheating them.



His 1:54 at RMP on (also worn) PMU CRs + Girodisc

I find SRF is so good that I just change it once a year. With the R5 front pads and Hawk DTC 30 rears, brake fade has never reared its ugly head. I am also part of an endurance race team and we use SRF and rarely bleed it between races. I don't think fresh SRF brake fluid would have made any difference.

Using VSA can easily overheat the rears (depending on the pad you are using) which could well contribute to your fade.

Having worn out tires should make your braking distances longer but shouldn't give you a soft pedal. The amount of kinetic energy that has to convert to heat is basically the same it just takes longer to do it with crappy tires.

 

[Dave B]

Hi Dave,

Love seeing this picture after our discussion at my shop! You've thoroughly tested these, Paragon and I can't ask for more The hard anodized hats and hardware look perfectly good for the next 16 track days and beyond. I know you're a huge fan of the R5's, but let me know if you'd like to give R7's a try next year when your next set of R5's that you purchased with these rings wears down

Humza

Hi Humza, Have to admit I am very happy with the R5s and unless I was to run on Hoosiers or other slicks, I don't see the need for the R7s. As an interesting side note, a good friend has a 2022 Toyota GR86 which he outfitted with some upgraded Brembo brakes front and rear and used Hawk DTC 60s (a pad I personally don't like). We traded cars at the Shannonville Pro Track for about 15 laps or so. Not only did he like the CTR power advantage, he really preferred my car's brakes.

 

[bicbaws]

I find SRF is so good that I just change it once a year. With the R5 front pads and Hawk DTC 30 rears, brake fade has never reared its ugly head. I am also part of an endurance race team and we use SRF and rarely bleed it between races. I don't think fresh SRF brake fluid would have made any difference.

Using VSA can easily overheat the rears (depending on the pad you are using) which could well contribute to your fade.

Having worn out tires should make your braking distances longer but shouldn't give you a soft pedal. The amount of kinetic energy that has to convert to heat is basically the same it just takes longer to do it with crappy tires.

Thanks for the insight, Dave! I'll definitely look into the Paragon pads for next year. I'm curious if it'll be a drastic difference if I substitute the DTC-30 Rear for PMU CR rear. I have accumulated a bunch of Project Mu CR rear pads. I don't know much about the ProjectMu product line or any jdm oriented brands to be quite honest.

I've had good experiences with DTC60/DTC30 combo on my past BMWs. I'd love to use the Carbotech line of pads, but they're a bit on the pricier side. But then I could just run one set of rotors without compromise.

Am I understanding correctly that while worn out tires equate to a longer braking distance, it wouldn't have a significant impact on overheating brakes?

 

[Dave B]

Thanks for the insight, Dave! I'll definitely look into the Paragon pads for next year. I'm curious if it'll be a drastic difference if I substitute the DTC-30 Rear for PMU CR rear. I have accumulated a bunch of Project Mu CR rear pads. I don't know much about the ProjectMu product line or any jdm oriented brands to be quite honest.

I've had good experiences with DTC60/DTC30 combo on my past BMWs. I'd love to use the Carbotech line of pads, but they're a bit on the pricier side. But then I could just run one set of rotors without compromise.

Am I understanding correctly that while worn out tires equate to a longer braking distance, it wouldn't have a significant impact on overheating brakes?

I don't know much about Project Mu and am always on the lookout for the best rear pad. As mentioned, the Hawk DTC 30 works well and lasts a long time but I think may be a bit of overkill at the rear.

I have used various Carbotech and G-Loc pads on different cars and quite like the feel and ability to modulate. OTOH, at the R10 and R12 level, they may produce a bit of a soft pedal although it still stops the car well. I don't find that they last as long as most of their competitors. There is also some question if their pad release is good enough.

With worn tires, you have less total grip available but the kinetic energy going from, say 160 kph to 80 kph , is the same but just happens over a longer distance i.e. over a longer time. I don't know why crappy tires would increase the heat going into the brakes and contribute to brake fade.

 

[AlphaDigital]

With worse tires, whether its from wear or just an inadequate tire, I think you would just lock your wheels up easier/Trigger ABS more, I dont think they would work harder but not sure

 

[HoboKit]

i wonder why people dont use endless ccrg or me20 amazing pads

 

[Dave B]

i wonder why people dont use endless ccrg or me20 amazing pads

For Hawk, Raybestos, G-loc and Carbotech, it is pretty easy to follow the relative progression of various pads, their operating temps and Mu. I can't discern how to make any sense of the Endless pad classifications. On This website, Endless lists 11 different sprint/race compounds but I am not sure how to progress from one to another. It could take a lot of expensive experimentation.

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