Killing the AWD Type R Dream....

[civicmanic]

What is it about AWD that gets you guys all worked up, I mean other then the fact that Honda can't seem to ever get it right.

WTF?? I'd love for it to happen with the CTR! I just don't think it will and nothing in that article gives me confidence that it actually will happen.

If I were confident it will happen, I wouldn't even consider buying the fwd version now. Why? I live in a friggin' snow belt that's why!!!

Do it Honda!!

Sponsored

 

[Browncoat3000]

Disagree. I don't see any integra's, del sol's, prelude's, crx's and s2000's on the horizon. And the NSX of today is no longer affordable for 99.9% of the population. I wish those days would come back, because as I was a teen in the mid-late 90's I absolutely love that era and have great nostalgia for it. Just don't see it happening! They've been there, done that and its proven to just not be a money maker for them.

I don't see them flooding the markets with these CTR's either. Honda is a much richer company than Subaru so I highly doubt they look to them as a standard of how things should be done.

As enthusiasts we are an extremely niche market where there is not a lot of $$$ to be made. Remember, they're in business to make money. To prove this and what is so ironic about you stating "Toyota doesn't seem to have a clue", Toyota is actually by far and away the richest auto manufacturer in the world. So while they don't appease our niche wants, they do for the general population and majority rules because that's clearly where the money is!

I think we are talking past each other. Toyota currently have the 2 top selling cars in the US. However listen to how Car and Driver describe them:
Corolla
"If car shopping were computer software, the Corolla could be the default setting: It has the space, power, and features to meet most people’s needs, but it is bland and uninspired."

Camry:
"For the majority of people for whom a car is merely an appliance, the Camry meets their needs to perfection."

That second one describes my Dad to perfection.

Sure, Toyota is very successful selling to the herd, but Honda is as well, the Accord is the 3rd best seller. Toyota is clueless when it comes to reaching the silent majority, those folks who like cars: not enthusiasts per se, but folks who want more than a flip-phone but perhaps don't need an iPhone 6s.

Ford is quite successful here, by offering a range for the Focus and Mustang that range from cheap to serious. This is the market Toyota is clueless about. A 50k Supra is not hitting their demographic at all.

Honda's mission, as stated by Mr Honda himself, is to focus on customer satisfaction. Using the Civic platform they can range from cheap shitbox to the drama of the CTR. This draws in more customers, who may not be enthusiasts like us, but who will undoubtedly enjoy their cars. Then when their needs change, they may come back for a Pilot or Oddy later.

Subaru does this, and they don't flood he world with STi's. I think Honda is trying the same strategy, and Nissan and Toyota have given them an opening to move from second to first.

A broader range of CTR models isn't difficult nor expensive, they've done the hard bits already. Adapt the drive train from the CRV, or upgrade the engine that's not a huge investment. It took Vit like what? A week to get the Si up to 300hp? Just like the Mustang, the cars will still roll down the same line from Swindon, it's just a matter of tagging the body with the correct build sheet.

 

[Vdeity86]

I'm sorry, most fan boys think it's s compliment when they are called arrogant and or annoying.

When the lead engineer suggests "a more powerful version could be in the works, as well as the potential inclusion of all-wheel drive" I think we have a better chance at getting one then hitting the lotto.

That does not read as if they are looking at a separate AWD version but more like AWD as an option to the versions they plan to offer.



It's funny how most "enthusiasts" don't try to dispel the possibility of the more powerful base version or more comfortable touring version but at the same time say an AWD version will never happen.


What is it about AWD that gets you guys all worked up, I mean other then the fact that Honda can't seem to ever get it right.

Where did u see that quote from ? Any suggestion of awd came from the writer. The first article I linked states that there will never be an awd according to another chief engineer. And it came directly from yuji, and,not from writer speculation.

 

[civicmanic]

It's thunder and lighting out right now, better not stick my head out the window I could potentially get struck! LOL I'd love to live in a world where could potentially meant certainly. I was once told I could potentially be anything I want, well I am not what I want to be that's for certain!

 

[civicmanic]

Sure, Toyota is very successful selling to the herd, but Honda is as well, the Accord is the 3rd best seller. Toyota is clueless when it comes to reaching the silent majority, those folks who like cars: not enthusiasts per se, but folks who want more than a flip-phone but perhaps don't need an iPhone 6s.

baahahahaha You're way too influenced by Trump talk. Toyota is in business to profit as much as they can, and they do it better than any of the other.

There is no such thing as a silent majority in this case. There is a vocal minority like you and I who are proud of what we want and will scream it to all auto manufacturers - but we don't have enough people backing us(with their mouth and their wallets) to make it financially viable and possible for these manufacturers to give us what we want.

 

[Boba Debt]

Where did u see that quote from ? Any suggestion of awd came from the writer. The first article I linked states that there will never be an awd according to another chief engineer. And it came directly from yuji, and,not from writer speculation.

That was taken directly from the following article http://www.carscoops.com/2017/06/hondas-new-civic-type-r-is-just.html


Here is the full text of the article:


American hot-hatch enthusiasts are suitably stoked by the arrival of the new Honda Civic Type R in the United States. But the model now reaching showrooms is just the start.
Automotive News, the Civic's chief engineer Hideki Matsumoto said that more versions of the 306-horsepower hot hatch are on their way.

“We’re hoping that by gradually putting out more [variants] that we’ll be able to maintain a more stable sales volume,” he said.

That's slated to include a cheaper version, but the budget Type R may not be the only one. Matsumoto-san suggested a more powerful version could be in the works, as well as the potential inclusion of all-wheel drive to better take on the likes of the VW Golf R, Ford Focus RS, and Subaru WRX STI. Those turned off by the Type R's hardcore approach could enjoy a more toned-down version oriented towards touring instead of lap times as well.

No word, however, on the prospect of applying the Type R treatment to other body-styles, like the coupe or sedan – both of which are now offered in sporty Si spec, pictured below in red and blue respectively, alongside the white Type R hatch.



Honda would not allow a writer to print an assumption of AWD if there wasn't some merit to it

 

[civicmanic]

Honda would not allow an writer to print an assumption of AWD if there wasn't some merit to it

Of course there is merit that it could potentially happen, that doesn't mean it will nor does it say it will. All it means it is not completely out of the question, they've mulled it over. Of course they have! That's common sense, we don't need an article to tell us that. But I don't think it will happen, you do. Agree to disagree.

 

[y4ngel]

I highly doubt they will do an AWD model, but if they do it may come out in 2020 along with the new STI.

 

[Chee_hu]

gotta love coming in here and see the debate, or more like argument, between a "honda fan boy" versus someone who purchased an STI instead of the CTR. Keep it up boys!

 

[d1390]

Of course there is merit that it could potentially happen, that doesn't mean it will nor does it say it will. All it means it is not completely out of the question, they've mulled it over. Of course they have! That's common sense, we don't need an article to tell us that. But I don't think it will happen, you do. Agree to disagree.

LOL get real dude! There is a reason why you see actual quotes of what the engineer said, but yet none of the awd talk was quoted! It's all speculation from the writer.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall to hear that conversation about awd between the writer and the engineer. Could've went something like:

Writer: Will there ever be an awd type r?
Engineer: Never say never.
Engineer: It's been talked about.

I suspect there is a big reason why none of the AWD talk was quoted. The CTR has been in production for 20+ years and has always been fwd. As much as they may backroom talk about it happening, and I am 100% positive it has been talked about, but that doesn't mean it's in the works. And nothing in that article comes directly from the mouth of anybody in the know.

Learn the difference between speculation(as in the writer using words like "could" and "potential" with there being no actual quotes from the engineer himself) and factual confirmation.

I actually agree with civicmaniac. You can't just get your hopes up over these news, they are all just speculation.

Especially coming from the chief engineer. Because that's what he is "Cheif Engineer" Its not like the CEO or whoever is in charge comes out and says "Hey, the next Type R will be AWD" then thats something to get excited for.

Plans change all the time, they might wake up and say lets make it AWD then the next day they will scrap it.

In some places i worked at, they have a special inbox that managers have access to where all ideas/plans/suggestions/discussions go. Most of the stuff that go in there don't go through for whatever reason. And i'm pretty sure they have something like this in place at Honda.

Honda pays the cheif engineer to make the car how they want, not on what the engineer wants. So if he says its been talked about, does not mean AWD is on the horizon, as much as we want it.

 

[HondaFan2017]

If you think the only thing honda offers is "just exclusivity", then I disagree. But I am not going to try to convince you otherwise, that's your prerogative and I am sure you didn't come up with it on a whim just like I am not going to change it on a whim. I could just as easily(and stupidly) say the only thing audi and bmw offers is a false sense of prestige and baller "status" that yuppies ever so long for, but whatever.
Moving on...

Certainly FK8R has some qualities that set it apart from other cars. This is what I still consider it. However it's worth about the MSRP, considering the current auto market context(competition offer). My point was that this "exclusivity" hype does not worth for me paying ADM or going out of my way to buy one. Maybe for other die hard fans worths to have a rare car. But for me I prefer to get for paying additionally other qualities: more driver oriented car, more engineering, better handling, materials...

You mentioned German manufacturers. Somehow they manage to give a sense of prestige/well made/status and they are actually good at it. This comes from R&D, better materials in general. Almost everything(except navigation ) is purposeful and well thought. Instead of looking like after thoughts.
When you are in the market for a car it attracts seeing a well put up car. I was passing by a Bmw showroom recently and saw the new 4 series LCI in Snapper Rocks Blue (a deep Turquoise in reality) it looked amazing. Plus the process of shopping/ after sales for such cars. Then take Honda Luxembourg that was advertising on Sun/Sat - Honda "open doors days". I went there on Sat and the store was closed, there was no personnel. All they did was exposing some 10th gen Honda outside. Great.

 

[Vdeity86]

That was taken directly from the following article http://www.carscoops.com/2017/06/hondas-new-civic-type-r-is-just.html


Here is the full text of the article:


American hot-hatch enthusiasts are suitably stoked by the arrival of the new Honda Civic Type R in the United States. But the model now reaching showrooms is just the start.
Automotive News, the Civic's chief engineer Hideki Matsumoto said that more versions of the 306-horsepower hot hatch are on their way.

“We’re hoping that by gradually putting out more [variants] that we’ll be able to maintain a more stable sales volume,” he said.

That's slated to include a cheaper version, but the budget Type R may not be the only one. Matsumoto-san suggested a more powerful version could be in the works, [ Yes, that's true ] as well as the potential inclusion of all-wheel drive [ Came from the writer ] to better take on the likes of the VW Golf R, Ford Focus RS, and Subaru WRX STI. Those turned off by the Type R's hardcore approach could enjoy a more toned-down version oriented towards touring instead of lap times as well.

No word, however, on the prospect of applying the Type R treatment to other body-styles, like the coupe or sedan – both of which are now offered in sporty Si spec, pictured below in red and blue respectively, alongside the white Type R hatch.



Honda would not allow a writer to print an assumption of AWD if there wasn't some merit to it

See the edits. Yes, he did suggest a more powerful version, but the indication came from the writer. He's making at assumption thinking that Honda will follow their competitors by having multiple verisons, but it just doesn't seem like it the way the engineers are talking. Using specifically their words. A more powerful version doesn't necessarily mean just HP. A version that's stripped of all the creature comforts and tuned better could be at play.

Here's an actual quote from Yuji, who is also a chief engineer from the article I wrote.

“So, lightweight and sporty, this is Type R. This is our policy,” he said.

“The big point is that Civic Type R is a front-wheel-drive strategy, this is the heritage, the culture and strategy we have for front-wheel-drive vehicles,” Matsumochi said. “Because we have a lot of experience with front-wheel drive – it’s very lightweight, very good handling, good fuel consumption.”

An all-wheel-drive hatch? That’d be a different type of car, with a different intent.

“Adding the all-wheel-drive means more weight or assistance or something. The important thing to us is the power-to-weight ratio. So, however, big power, more weight.
“Not a Type R is a possibility for the big power [with all-wheel-drive], this is a possibility for the future. But not for a Type R."

 

[iforyou]

I wouldn't be surprised if that's still the stance at Honda - that the Civic Type R will remain a FWD vehicle.

With that said, they can easily make a more powerful car with SH-AWD or Sport Hybrid SH-AWD under the Acura nameplate. My guess is that we will see something like that with the next Acura ILX. The 10g Civic rides a brand new platform that is flexible and is shared with the next Accord too. I believe it's designed to be compatible with AWD.

 

[Boba Debt]

I wonder if the Dodge forums had threads like this when it was speculated that there would be an AWD Challenger?????


If you bing AWD Type R you can read page after page of articles that hint at it happening.

Could there be an AWD Type R, maybe.

Could Honda call it something else, maybe.

Either way, if Honda offers a 300+HP AWD Hatchback (true hatchback ala Focus RS) I' will seriously consider buying it.

 

[Vdeity86]

I wonder if the Dodge forums had threads like this when it was speculated that there would be an AWD Challenger?????


If you bing AWD Type R you can read page after page of articles that hint at it happening.

Could there be an AWD Type R, maybe.

Could Honda call it something else, maybe.

Either way, if Honda offers a 300+HP AWD Hatchback (true hatchback ala Focus RS) I' will seriously consider buying it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no AWD hater. Sti is 2nd or 3rd on my list. I want to be optimistic, but I'm not one for extracting information from an article that doesnt come from an official honda rep. In this case it was even the opposite.

Never say never, but don't say honda was hinting at it when clearly the author was the one doing creating that based on how the market is set up and not any words from the engineer.

Sponsored