K20C1 Camshaft Testing - Unlocking the RPM, sound, and power we all love in a Honda Racing Engine

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4piston

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Thank you! That’s honestly cheaper than I was expecting which is awesome. I think I saw on Instagram you were installing these on the race engines you build for customers. I’m guessing that’s a special order thing right and not just the $8500 listing on the website right?
We are updating the packages on the website to include cams. We are going to differentiate the options for "stock replacement with strength upgrade", a performance upgrade, and a max effort race setup for big turbo cars. Not everyone needs the same package and I think we have a better handle on that now.

For instance...there's been some talk around the R circles that ported heads don't work and that they even lose power. I can tell you with 100% certainty that they absolutely work and we didn't develop it with our heads in the mud, but now I've seen first hand that some tuners are living inside a small box of etunes and they are loading a lot of premade maps rather than actually tuning the engines. This changes the combustion event, fuel timing, ign timing, and increases the volumetric efficiency of the engine more than 20%....and I've seen it first hand now how bad it is. Its good...I can help guide now that I know what they are doing.
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I got a chance to shoot out to the SCT this past weekend and was able to grab a lane with some pretty fast cars that I know well....some of which I built the power for. I did put it on race gas and turned it up to all she had on this little 7163. Its not something I'd normally share and I don't go out much, but the cams make all the difference in the world on the highway. The smaller turbo is an advantage on a 40 or 50 roll vs other Hondas with 62, 64, 67mm or bigger because I get this big 500+tq almost instantly for a good jump before they can find the boost. Problem was that previously in the R you run out of RPM and are shifting through 15 gears like Paul Walker vs Dom. You can FEEL the car nose over as you approach 7 and the other cars are just building to their powerband. Problem solved.

I got lined up with some friends with 600-750whp Hondas....all older and several hundred lbs lighter and exceptionally well built cars on R888Rs setup for the roll. I just flat put the hurt on all of them in every gear from any 40, 50, or 60 roll. I even let them go first and put on a chase to make sure they were in their powerband and just drove around. Where it used to fall over on this turbo at 6800 and I'd over spin it and loose ground....now I can leave it in and let it eat to 8500 and it never gives up. Gives the tires a lot more chance to compose themselves and pull through, and then the extra long legs to stay in gear. 750hp TT Audi, BMW 1M with over 600 , 800whp AMG, and my Civic buddies all solid low 10 second 140 trap cars.....all got the tug to 150 no matter what I gave them. I let them all take the hit. It was a good night. The cam combo with the little turbo may be the most fun setup yet. Not lazy on the bottom, and not drastically overpowering the tire.


Now, in full disclosure I've been running the TR3 cam quite awhile on the 64mm and its on a different level on the highway. I went back to this 7163 to do this cam test here for the power level that people are building their cars for, and also for some end of season track days.

This is a completely subjective post. Take with a grain of salt. I was excited and wanted to share real world what it feels like and how it made a difference beyond dyno charts
so we can rev pass 7k rpm? ?. So what are people getting with full build engine, big turbo/fsu and ethanol? Are we at 1000whp “safe” yet? ?
 

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I got a chance to shoot out to the SCT this past weekend and was able to grab a lane with some pretty fast cars that I know well....some of which I built the power for. I did put it on race gas and turned it up to all she had on this little 7163. Its not something I'd normally share and I don't go out much, but the cams make all the difference in the world on the highway. The smaller turbo is an advantage on a 40 or 50 roll vs other Hondas with 62, 64, 67mm or bigger because I get this big 500+tq almost instantly for a good jump before they can find the boost. Problem was that previously in the R you run out of RPM and are shifting through 15 gears like Paul Walker vs Dom. You can FEEL the car nose over as you approach 7 and the other cars are just building to their powerband. Problem solved.

I got lined up with some friends with 600-750whp Hondas....all older and several hundred lbs lighter and exceptionally well built cars on R888Rs setup for the roll. I just flat put the hurt on all of them in every gear from any 40, 50, or 60 roll. I even let them go first and put on a chase to make sure they were in their powerband and just drove around. Where it used to fall over on this turbo at 6800 and I'd over spin it and loose ground....now I can leave it in and let it eat to 8500 and it never gives up. Gives the tires a lot more chance to compose themselves and pull through, and then the extra long legs to stay in gear. 750hp TT Audi, BMW 1M with over 600 , 800whp AMG, and my Civic buddies all solid low 10 second 140 trap cars.....all got the tug to 150 no matter what I gave them. I let them all take the hit. It was a good night. The cam combo with the little turbo may be the most fun setup yet. Not lazy on the bottom, and not drastically overpowering the tire.

Now, in full disclosure I've been running the TR3 cam quite awhile on the 64mm and its on a different level on the highway. I went back to this 7163 to do this cam test here for the power level that people are building their cars for, and also for some end of season track days.

This is a completely subjective post. Take with a grain of salt. I was excited and wanted to share real world what it feels like and how it made a difference beyond dyno charts

@4piston
Thank you Luke for all your great work!!!
Two HUGE questions:
1. Is the above experience with your ported head OR the stock head?
2. What is the safe RPM limit on the stock bottom end?
 
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so we can rev pass 7k rpm? ?. So what are people getting with full build engine, big turbo/fsu and ethanol? Are we at 1000whp “safe” yet? ?
250hp per cylinder and "safe" is pretty bold :) That is a race engine for sure, and lots can go wrong whenever you put that kind of strain into an engine. If all things are right, and the tuneup is good....they can last a bit but anyone trying to do that in a street car will soon learn about the weakest link. Build your car for 700 or so.....and it will be too fast and pretty reliable.

@4piston
Thank you Luke for all your great work!!!
Two HUGE questions:
1. Is the above experience with your ported head OR the stock head?
2. What is the safe RPM limit on the stock bottom end?
The white car was done with a stock head and TR2 drop in cam
The black car was done with the ported head and TR3 race cam

I think 8000 is OK on the stock bottom end, however you can't do it on the stock ECU. You pretty well have to have Motec to even achieve that....and a good fuel supply....and a bigger turbo LOL. Its compounded spending :)
 

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250hp per cylinder and "safe" is pretty bold :) That is a race engine for sure, and lots can go wrong whenever you put that kind of strain into an engine. If all things are right, and the tuneup is good....they can last a bit but anyone trying to do that in a street car will soon learn about the weakest link. Build your car for 700 or so.....and it will be too fast and pretty reliable.



The white car was done with a stock head and TR2 drop in cam
The black car was done with the ported head and TR3 race cam

I think 8000 is OK on the stock bottom end, however you can't do it on the stock ECU. You pretty well have to have Motec to even achieve that....and a good fuel supply....and a bigger turbo LOL. Its compounded spending :)
I really want the black cars setup like BAD but man with motec it’s over 20 grand. My name just can’t handle it.
 


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I think the biggest thing you'll see on stock engines being pushed too hard on RPM is valve float. Pay attention to dyno graphs and you'll see they get pretty choppy up there past 7200......that's not good. The valve is out of control.
 

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@4piston is it doable to have a fully built K20C1 for 9000rpm redline? I’m looking for a fun build and I like high rpm for some twisted reasons.

Target is reliable, broad powerband, 91 octane, say 500ish hp? Of course, Motec, fueling, turbo, cooling, etc are expected.
 
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@4piston is it doable to have a fully built K20C1 for 9000rpm redline? I’m looking for a fun build and I like high rpm for some twisted reasons.

Target is reliable, broad powerband, 91 octane, say 500ish hp? Of course, Motec, fueling, turbo, cooling, etc are expected.
I think 8300-8500 is more realistic with a smaller and responsive turbo that's fun to drive. I turn mine in that range on the small turbo and its a blast. Of course you can put an 800hp capable turbo on the car and build boost up as rpm rises and have it climb to 9000 rpm. It will 100% do it, and will make power there. You just give up some responsiveness and fun on the low rpm side to gain that up top.

Head, cam, fuel supply, Motec, big turbo.......9000 no issue.
 

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Thanks Luke @4piston

I ordered the engine. I am planning on 8300-8500 rpm with a smaller turbo.

Primarily a pump gas (92 octane) fun street car. What’s a good turbo? Large A/R G25-660? What CR would you suggest for 88mm bore build?

I think 8300-8500 is more realistic with a smaller and responsive turbo that's fun to drive. I turn mine in that range on the small turbo and its a blast. Of course you can put an 800hp capable turbo on the car and build boost up as rpm rises and have it climb to 9000 rpm. It will 100% do it, and will make power there. You just give up some responsiveness and fun on the low rpm side to gain that up top.

Head, cam, fuel supply, Motec, big turbo.......9000 no issue.
 
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Thanks Luke @4piston

I ordered the engine. I am planning on 8300-8500 rpm with a smaller turbo.

Primarily a pump gas (92 octane) fun street car. What’s a good turbo? Large A/R G25-660? What CR would you suggest for 88mm bore build?
Right now you pretty much have to get the Garrett whether you want to or not. Borg Warner has supply issues. Bummer....because I think its a higher quality turbo that under the same conditions will last longer. They produce similar results...maybe a touch more power from the 660.
 


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Right now you pretty much have to get the Garrett whether you want to or not. Borg Warner has supply issues. Bummer....because I think its a higher quality turbo that under the same conditions will last longer. They produce similar results...maybe a touch more power from the 660.
Thanks. Any thoughts on G30-660 vs G25-660 on the 88mm bore engine that’s being built?

I am currently leaning G30-660 with 0.83 A/R and might get the 1.01 A/R to test as well.
 

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so we can rev pass 7k rpm? ?. So what are people getting with full build engine, big turbo/fsu and ethanol? Are we at 1000whp “safe” yet? ?
Thanks. Any thoughts on G30-660 vs G25-660 on the 88mm bore engine that’s being built?

I am currently leaning G30-660 with 0.83 A/R and might get the 1.01 A/R to test as well.
What turbo did you end up choosing? What were your results?
 

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What turbo did you end up choosing? What were your results?
Still waiting on the engine.:D

Currently leaning towards a G30-660 (might try a couple of different A/R on the exhaust housings).
 


 


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