K20C1 Camshaft Testing - Unlocking the RPM, sound, and power we all love in a Honda Racing Engine

Civic_rob

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the price is baller level too ?
You get what you pay for. Actual carbon fiber intake piping as opposed to the 'carbon fiber look' parts some companies try to pass off. That being said I ain't paying 1k+ for an intake. I'll just make my own at that point.
 

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wished i could hit at least 400hp with 91 oct since thats the best gas i can get around me. 20 miles to get 93 oct and 100 miles to get E85 :(
 

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wished i could hit at least 400hp with 91 oct since thats the best gas i can get around me. 20 miles to get 93 oct and 100 miles to get E85 :(
You need either a turbo plus fuel system or meth or do yourself a favor and get all 3
 


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On dyno now. The intercooler and intake made a massive difference. I had to pull boost out because it pegged the stock pump at 3500 and at 6000. Second pull 406. Pump 92, stock fuel system at 96% now. I think we are gonna put an XDI pump on now and not push our luck.

Edit…also this is Hondata.

Honda Civic 10th gen K20C1 Camshaft Testing	 - Unlocking the RPM, sound, and power we all love in a Honda Racing Engine 6014F138-8952-45CF-9A87-C34EF845D1DA
 
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Update 7.11.21

I've debated about sharing this update all weekend because it really isn't related to the camshafts at all. All related to ECUs, and its full of speed bumps. I decided to share because these are things you guys can come across as well. I don't sell ECUs, I'm not a dealer for either, I have no ties to anyone and I don't tune cars for a living. Maybe this can be of value to people.....maybe not.

To recap, we did the back to back on the cams and showed a clear gain in power and I hope I emphasized the change in driving experience enough related to the power and sound over the stock cams. We did the original tuning on the stock ECU and then switched to Motec and were able to make a bit more on the stock fuel system....just better high pressure fuel pump control gave us more room and more consistent pressures up top.

You can see above with the 406hp dyno pull that we had switched back to Hondata.....what I didn't say was why. Our Motec had a defect that did not reveal itself on the dyno...only on the street. It had to be sent back to Australia for repair...a 3-4 week ordeal that still hasn't returned. How frustrating. I've been using them on everything I own for 15 years and never had a bad part. All our cars, boat, our side by sides, all my customer's race cars...we power everything with these. But....this one had to be sent back for repair as it had a factory defect. Stuff happens, I give them the benefit of the doubt for a flawless 15 year record with us. Wish it could have been swapped out for another unit so we didn't lose the time...and that's probably the frustrating part for me.

So we put the Hondata back on to test the car with the intercooler and intake. The car easily produced over 400whp on pump gas every pull, Hondata, stock fuel system. We were 100% duty on the pump at peak tq and 96% at peak hp....then it couldn't hold up to carry that up top as it pegged 100 again past peak. We figured a quick fix to make more was to swap the XDI pump in and get a little more room. Took about an hour to swap the pump and we are back in business. I followed the simple procedure for checking the pump control....and loaded (3 times before it would take). Checking that box for pump control allows the car to idle and drive partial throttle and at limited rpm. That's about the best I can say about it. If you put that on your car, check the box, make a full pull.....big misfires up top. Pump control above 5500 rpm...yikes. The pump control tables need drastic changes to make clean pulls through power. No big deal, just make sure you are lined up with a competent tuner before you start making hits on your car if you swap this pump. Despite making some clean pulls, I was unable to make more power than the stock pump. You may swap this on your car and make pulls to 7200 rpm and feel just the slightest miss in the upper rpm and think "oh that's minor and my tuner can touch that up." If you were to pull a log and see what the pump pressures and AFR are doing to produced that slight miss....you'd consider it a more serious issue. So I pulled out boost, pulled out timing, softened everything up by taking power out to see if I could get this under control....initial success then it would miss. Its not a power thing, Its not a pump capacity thing, its a pump control thing. We had to put some time in tweaking pump pressure control to get it to a happy place...and those misfires on the engine while getting there are hard on the engine. Glad we don't have a rod hanging out. We made 409 and are able to make dyno pulls, but I'm not confident in racing this car like this under changing conditions.

Just to double check myself and make sure I'm not missing something, I had a friend Fred Morales at Derf Tuned take a look at it. He's one of the more competent tuners I've ever worked with on any platform, and honestly he has a ton of Hondata experience. He's also tuned several of these with this fuel pump. He got to good clean pulls faster than I did, but looking at the logs the pressure control up top is not what we are used to seeing on Motec. He squeezed 411 and we left it a consistent and reproducible 406. You could clearly make more power at peak tq with this pump and still have room....some good rod bending torque :) We also DO have more room up top and didn't see power fall off as it did on the stock pump. If anyone is looking for a good remote tune, I highly recommend Fred....he has a great amount of experience with this platform, and has taken great care of our customers on big power FK8 builds with both Hondata and Motec.

Honda Civic 10th gen K20C1 Camshaft Testing	 - Unlocking the RPM, sound, and power we all love in a Honda Racing Engine HondataXDI.Derf.pumpgas


Summary......
1. You want a simple 400whp stock turbo pump gas setup...simple. Intake, intercooler, exhaust, TR2 Drop-In Camshaft, Stock fuel system, Hondata. Drives great, easy to tune, easy 400+whp conservatively on swamp gas. No bandaids and no tricks. I have a lot more patience and respect for the Hondata and stock ECU having spent this time with it.
2. Early on in 17 we pushed over 400hp with meth injection and bandaids....but to do this conservatively with pump gas is great. For reference...40-45hp of that back then was from the oxygen in the methanol itself, a lot more boost, and the timing that we could run. Its nice to have this power and pull and not have to deal with the cluster F of meth injection....and believe me you run it long enough you'll know that.
3. The fuel pump control on the stock ECU needs work. Sorry...it does.
4. We get the Motec back this week and we will see if we can push the pump gas further. It controls the stock pump better, and it controls the XDI pump flawlessly. I easily made 480+ on that pump and stock injectors years ago....its not out of pump, its all control strategy.
 
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kefi

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It’s a known issue that the pump control on Hondata for the XDI is terrible. Every single one I tune has the same issue. The only way to avoid that I’ve seen is by having a very high fuel demand like on a big turbo or high ethanol content, it seems to move it beyond the point that the issue occurs. XDI sent me out a pump to do some testing on and Hondata was hopefully going to give me a build of the software that would let me tweak it but thus far no dice.
 
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Are you able to rewrite the pump control strategy? Because if you can't then a tune will only make the car run, not fix the control strategy. We certainly can make it run and pull clean I don't want to be misleading.
 


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Update 7.11.21

I've debated about sharing this update all weekend because it really isn't related to the camshafts at all. All related to ECUs, and its full of speed bumps. I decided to share because these are things you guys can come across as well. I don't sell ECUs, I'm not a dealer for either, I have no ties to anyone and I don't tune cars for a living. Maybe this can be of value to people.....maybe not.

To recap, we did the back to back on the cams and showed a clear gain in power and I hope I emphasized the change in driving experience enough related to the power and sound over the stock cams. We did the original tuning on the stock ECU and then switched to Motec and were able to make a bit more on the stock fuel system....just better high pressure fuel pump control gave us more room and more consistent pressures up top.

You can see above with the 406hp dyno pull that we had switched back to Hondata.....what I didn't say was why. Our Motec had a defect that did not reveal itself on the dyno...only on the street. It had to be sent back to Australia for repair...a 3-4 week ordeal that still hasn't returned. How frustrating. I've been using them on everything I own for 15 years and never had a bad part. All our cars, boat, our side by sides, all my customer's race cars...we power everything with these. But....this one had to be sent back for repair as it had a factory defect. Stuff happens, I give them the benefit of the doubt for a flawless 15 year record with us. Wish it could have been swapped out for another unit so we didn't lose the time...and that's probably the frustrating part for me.

So we put the Hondata back on to test the car with the intercooler and intake. The car easily produced over 400whp on pump gas every pull, Hondata, stock fuel system. We were 100% duty on the pump at peak tq and 96% at peak hp....then it couldn't hold up to carry that up top as it pegged 100 again past peak. We figured a quick fix to make more was to swap the XDI pump in and get a little more room. Took about an hour to swap the pump and we are back in business. I followed the simple procedure for checking the pump control....and loaded (3 times before it would take). Checking that box for pump control allows the car to idle and drive partial throttle and at limited rpm. That's about the best I can say about it. If you put that on your car, check the box, make a full pull.....big misfires up top. Pump control above 5500 rpm...yikes. The pump control tables need drastic changes to make clean pulls through power. No big deal, just make sure you are lined up with a competent tuner before you start making hits on your car if you swap this pump. Despite making some clean pulls, I was unable to make more power than the stock pump. You may swap this on your car and make pulls to 7200 rpm and feel just the slightest miss in the upper rpm and think "oh that's minor and my tuner can touch that up." If you were to pull a log and see what the pump pressures and AFR are doing to produced that slight miss....you'd consider it a more serious issue. So I pulled out boost, pulled out timing, softened everything up by taking power out to see if I could get this under control....initial success then it would miss. Its not a power thing, Its not a pump capacity thing, its a pump control thing. We had to put some time in tweaking pump pressure control to get it to a happy place...and those misfires on the engine while getting there are hard on the engine. Glad we don't have a rod hanging out. We made 409 and are able to make dyno pulls, but I'm not confident in racing this car like this under changing conditions.

Just to double check myself and make sure I'm not missing something, I had a friend Fred Morales at Derf Tuned take a look at it. He's one of the more competent tuners I've ever worked with on any platform, and honestly he has a ton of Hondata experience. He's also tuned several of these with this fuel pump. He got to good clean pulls faster than I did, but looking at the logs the pressure control up top is not what we are used to seeing on Motec. He squeezed 411 and we left it a consistent and reproducible 406. You could clearly make more power at peak tq with this pump and still have room....some good rod bending torque :) We also DO have more room up top and didn't see power fall off as it did on the stock pump. If anyone is looking for a good remote tune, I highly recommend Fred....he has a great amount of experience with this platform, and has taken great care of our customers on big power FK8 builds with both Hondata and Motec.

HondataXDI.Derf.pumpgas.jpg


Summary......
1. You want a simple 400whp stock turbo pump gas setup...simple. Intake, intercooler, exhaust, TR2 Drop-In Camshaft, Stock fuel system, Hondata. Drives great, easy to tune, easy 400+whp conservatively on swamp gas. No bandaids and no tricks. I have a lot more patience and respect for the Hondata and stock ECU having spent this time with it.
2. Early on in 17 we pushed over 400hp with meth injection and bandaids....but to do this conservatively with pump gas is great. For reference...40-45hp of that back then was from the oxygen in the methanol itself, a lot more boost, and the timing that we could run. Its nice to have this power and pull and not have to deal with the cluster F of meth injection....and believe me you run it long enough you'll know that.
3. The fuel pump control on the stock ECU needs work. Sorry...it does.
4. We get the Motec back this week and we will see if we can push the pump gas further. It controls the stock pump better, and it controls the XDI pump flawlessly. I easily made 480+ on that pump and stock injectors years ago....its not out of pump, its all control strategy.
Good data!, When do you think the cams will be available ? any price range?
 

turbociv910

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The PID needs major work for the XDI Feedback loop. Its very slow.(as well as the dinosaur age data logger hondata has) It wont be smart for Hondata to give us that access because then we can run any pump we can fit there.
Sponsored

 
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