Is the power on the 10th gen Civic SI enough?

RehabJP

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This is the GTI SE setup I'd want, with just a couple hundred $$ in options. That's why I say the Si is one helluva bargain.

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Yea the Vee Dub is gonna cost more but you also get more power, torque and well "Sport" over all then in the current gen Si. I love the Si so don't get it twisted and it is a good value for what you get for sure I just think its time Honda did a major upgrade to the Si trim. I do not need Titan black leather in the Si but more under the hood would be nice.
 

charleswrivers

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This is the GTI SE setup I'd want, with just a couple hundred $$ in options. That's why I say the Si is one helluva bargain.

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I had to go back and look since I thought I was out to lunch on my old numbers. Naw... they were right. The price on these things sure has gone up in the 3-4 years since I last looked. Looks like the MSRPs have gotten a 10% bump or so per trim in that time. I was seeing Sports w/the LSD well south of $30k new and 2 year old early Mk7s running around $20k-even back then. I kept hearing noise about Mk8s coming soon (this model year I thought) with substantially more power but it looks like they’re holding over the Mk7s.

I’ve always felt I’ve missed out not having had a GTI for at least a couple years. With an APR tune on 93 octane... these things can make massive amounts of power for a FWD. I’ve known several that have had them over the years... hell I’ve got a guy in my office now that has an R and loves the thing. Imperfect or an occasional maintenance PITA as they are... there’s got to be something there for all the love folks I know give them.
 

VarmintCong

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Hatch ST definitely has LEDs, I didn't know the Si's had them. So now you are only suffering a hatchless car for the LSD. :cool:
While I prefer the hatch, the hatch ST has the moonroof anyway which I don't like, and no LSD, and would have been like $2-3k more. What I really want is LSD, LEDs, and no moonroof. Yeah I know, Type R. :)
 

VarmintCong

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While that sounds good on paper, the reality is it won't happen for a number of reasons. First, look at the price point of the cars Honda sells with the 2.0T. Second, they probably won't invest in designing a de-tuned, more efficient engine for the Civic Si.

Remember, the Si was never meant to be the halo car the Type R is. It's always been the Sport Injected version of the economy Civic. Better looking, better handling and quicker than the other non-R models. But at a reasonable price point.

The current Si is a great handler. Check. Gets very good gas mileage. Check. Looks sporty. Check. Has plenty of power. Well that's the sticking point.

At it's price point, taking everything into consideration, it one helluva package. But yes, it could use a bit more oomph.

If Honda would re-tune the 1.5T a bit and go from 205hp/192tq to say, 225hp/220tq, I think they'd have a winner winner, chicken dinner. And our tuning survey shows that that level of power is certainly safe.
225 hp Si hatch w/ LSD and LEDs for $27k, perfect. Yeah, if they can reliably get the 1.5T up to 225 hp, that's what they'll do for sure. They don't want the Si to be $30k.
 

VarmintCong

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I mean... they did design a fuel efficient 2.0t. It’s a K20C4 that is tuned for 87 octane and gets 32 highway, does 0-60 in a mid-5, does a 1/4 mile in 14-flat and has an observed mid-30s in fuel economy in a heavier Accord which a Civic should meet or exceed. Even though the fuel economy numbers are lower... since the numbers are based on a regular vice premium recommendation which would cost about 20% less per gallon... fuel cost should actually be about the same.

We just didn’t get it. I refuse to believe the actual price difference in a L15B7 powertrain vs a K20C4 powertrain is actually substantially different. It’s all a markup for more profit on the higher trim. If you compare the cost of one replacement motor to another... which I did a couple years back when the Accord were coming out... and other bits, like their turbos (C4s get a smaller turbo compared to a C1) then you’re probably within a grand or two. The only reason a K20C4-powered Civic need cost $30k is because that’s what Honda would insist on charging for it. It should still compete with at the GTI at its present price point... it’s not like the GTI immediately costs $30k with its ‘big’ 2.0 and turbo that, if memory serves, has or had a TD04-sized CHRA from the factory.
If you put a 2.0T in the Si, you have to change all kinds of things - you need more cooling, better brakes, suspension changes, body stiffening etc - by using the 1.5T in the Si, Honda barely had to change anything vs the rest of the lineup. That allows them to sell the Si for $2k more than a Sport hatch.

That would be a big investment, in addition to raising the cost of the car. It'll only happen if they change what the Si means to them.

Better to keep the Si cheap, and offer a cheaper Type R (the Sport).
 


VarmintCong

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They need to get those Ponies up on the Si trim for sure whatever they do. If they want the Si to be the compromise for the CTR its been kinda stagnant and Si badge is not as "prestigious" (for lack of a better term) as it was when they first launched. I mean yea its a good value an you do get some bonuses over the LX with the sport trim and slight increase to power but it would be nice if the Si was a true middle between the Civic LX and the CTR.

That is just how I feel I know others think the Si is the "Drivers' version of the Civic with the 6 speed manual and other creature comforts that do not come standard on other Civic trims and that if you want a sports car you should be looking at the Type R or maybe even something other than a Honda but when you see VW Golf and Veloster and other cars in the same price range with similar features and more power you would think Honda would want to step up their game.
I agree, the gap from Si to Type R is too large ($11k?). They need a Type R with modest wing, cheaper 19s, lose the nav and stereo etc. Maybe even detune it if you want to sell it $5k cheaper.
 

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I agree, the gap from Si to Type R is too large ($11k?). They need a Type R with modest wing, cheaper 19s, lose the nav and stereo etc. Maybe even detune it if you want to sell it $5k cheaper.
But if Honda offered the cheaper, lower power R you're talking about, that would probably mean no Si hatch.
 

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COBB Tuned WRX > Phearable 1.5 Civic Si.

We can go all day and see who's got deeper pockets. :D
Actually, when I was TSP stage 1 with an intake I was able to beat a Cobb tuned WRX from a roll. There’s a few videos online with similar outcomes.

To the OP, i was considering trading in my now FBO 18 Si and honesty for the money there isn’t much that compares to it in regards to daily drivability, creature comforts, reliability, fuel economy, aftermarket, and performance. Again, for the money...

The GTI is nice but you need the performance package to get the LSD. Straight line potential on the GTi is impressive though. I considered the Veloster N PP but my car felt more solid, quicker, and better built. I won’t get in another Subaru ever again after my last STI. I had a soft spot for the Focus ST’s but they felt dated when I got in it. I think after having the SI and realizing the cornering capabilities with the LSD, I won’t consider a FWD car without an LSD. Straight line performance is fun to me but the corners are much more enjoyable. All these cars are more expensive than the SI too.
 

julianzh

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Actually, when I was TSP stage 1 with an intake I was able to beat a Cobb tuned WRX from a roll. There’s a few videos online with similar outcomes.

To the OP, i was considering trading in my now FBO 18 Si and honesty for the money there isn’t much that compares to it in regards to daily drivability, creature comforts, reliability, fuel economy, aftermarket, and performance. Again, for the money...

The GTI is nice but you need the performance package to get the LSD. Straight line potential on the GTi is impressive though. I considered the Veloster N PP but my car felt more solid, quicker, and better built. I won’t get in another Subaru ever again after my last STI. I had a soft spot for the Focus ST’s but they felt dated when I got in it. I think after having the SI and realizing the cornering capabilities with the LSD, I won’t consider a FWD car without an LSD. Straight line performance is fun to me but the corners are much more enjoyable. All these cars are more expensive than the SI too.
Starting with 2019 gti and after, all gti gets the pp as standard.
 


RehabJP

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But if Honda offered the cheaper, lower power R you're talking about, that would probably mean no Si hatch.
Or they could come out with a Hatch that is between the Si and the CTR. Not sure what they wold call it the Civic Si Sport ( I mean the naming of the civics needs work the Civic sport is not the sport the Si is the true Civic Sport and the LX is more sporty than the Sport so where is the Sport in the Civic Sport?) I'm thinks something like $28,00-$30,000 you get a sport hatch like the Golf GTI or the Volester. Not as powerful as the FK8 but more juice than the stock Si. IDK call it the Spoon Si or the Mugen Si or Si Forza Edition (LOL)

I think a trim between the Si and the Type R is called for and I think it would sell well if the price is right. I think more people are looking for sportier cars again and almost every Maker is putting out a trim of their sport hatch that is cheaper than the Si with more power and track ready features. I know COVID is gonna change things a bit but it will pass and when its over people are gonna wanna go fast. GTIs and Velosters and selling great right now or were before all this crap in the world.
 

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Starting with 2019 gti and after, all gti gets the pp as standard.
that’s good. It should come standard. It’ll make it a very capable car. I don’t know what they start at in Canada but it has the potential to be an unbeatable bargain.
 

2020PWPV2

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The rev hang is kind of a buzzkill if you don't tune it. I had a 275hp R32 Golf and the interior fell apart, drive train was great. I don't know if I would want to keep the Si stock. I just run the rev hang delete and ktuner base map for shits and giggles. LSD is good, not the best for sure but there are hardly any FWD LSD cars. The suspension seems to give you terrible traction on bumpy roads. Otherwise its pretty great in everything else, wish it was a hatchback or fastback though haha.
 

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But if Honda offered the cheaper, lower power R you're talking about, that would probably mean no Si hatch.
Maybe, but I've never bought the idea the Si hurts Type R sales. A detuned 2.0L Type R probably would negate a Si hatch, but I think they'd not detune it, just decontent to drop the price a little, like the Sport Europe gets.
 

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If they do an Si hatch, it would be that middle ground between the Type R and the normal hatch. Pump up the Si specs and call it a day. They already have some established nameplates available, use them to avoid confusion. Otherwise you're offering three enthusiast versions of the same car.

With the preliminary announcement of 355 HP for the TLX Type S, the 11th gen might not see a huge bump in power since everything has to stay in its lane so to speak. Styling updates, some handling updates and a small power bump are more likely.
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