Is it safe to use 5-40w oil on FK8 Type R?

[17RGuy]

Just throwing this out there but even HPD(Honda Performance Development) recommends 0w20 oil on their k20c1 racing engines for F3 America.....

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1617793/Honda-K20c1.html?page=2#manual

Hmmmm, interesting find here. Thank you for sharing! I’ve been pretty torn here lately on oil weight for track use. Oil threads are always fun on car forums hahaha.
I use redline 0w20 and will be switching to Motul 300v next. I just can’t ignore the extra heat protection for track use by moving to a 0w30 or 5w30. I wish we had some good track data showing the 30 weight possibly adds some needed thermal protection for track use. Lust definitely has proof via his lab reports 300v in 0w20 has no issues protecting for a lot of miles and a lot of hard track time.

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[Gruber]

Hmmmm, interesting find here. Thank you for sharing! I’ve been pretty torn here lately on oil weight for track use. Oil threads are always fun on car forums hahaha.
I use redline 0w20 and will be switching to Motul 300v next. I just can’t ignore the extra heat protection for track use by moving to a 0w30 or 5w30. I wish we had some good track data showing the 30 weight possibly adds some needed thermal protection for track use. Lust definitely has proof via his lab reports 300v in 0w20 has no issues protecting for a lot of miles and a lot of hard track time.

But, they also say: only these two specific oils. They didn't say "use any 0W20 oil advertised as "racing." You chose to only pay attention to the viscosity, and ignore the brands they chose. For performance, obviously a low viscosity oil gives that small bit of extra power due to low friction, on the condition that it still protects OK. There is no such engine in the world that actually needs 0W20 and will do worse on an equivalent quality 5W30 from the point of view of protection/longevity. In racing long term is not an issue. For the win, use the thinnest temperature resistant oil that will sufficiently protect the engine until the next overhaul.

0W20 Mobil1 Advanced Fuel Economy (PN 98KG88) or Phillips 66 Shield Valor (PN 5-2-P1076567) No other oils are approved at this time.

 

[AlphaDigital]

For the win, use the thinnest temperature resistant oil that will sufficiently protect the engine until the next overhaul.

Based on this suggestion, which oil brand would you recommend and which weight? I ask because I think this statement is pretty broad.

 

[Gruber]

Based on this suggestion, which oil brand would you recommend and which weight? I ask because I think this statement is pretty broad.

For the K20C1 and real racing I would definitely use 0W20.
I personally like this

DOWNLOAD TDS (idemitsulubricants.com)

based on some good things I've heard about it, and I would trust it as a whole product that's continuously improved. This oil is not advertised as based on PAO or esters.

Various racing oils may be based on really truly synthetic base which in principle should be the most resistant to high temperature oxidation and decomposition, and also even better at cooling. It's usually described as "smart molecules sticking to metal" or something similar that has been used in advertising ever since the synthetic oils first appeared. The question is whether that extreme "film strength" makes any real difference for this engine which is worth exchanging for other properties of a well rounded oil with all certifications.
It's a matter of what you believe, as it's easy to figure, because apparently they recommend Mobil 1 AFE 0W20 for racing, which can be bought cheaply at Walmart.

 

[Litfuse]

For the K20C1 and real racing I would definitely use 0W20.
I personally like this

DOWNLOAD TDS (idemitsulubricants.com)

based on some good things I've heard about it, and I would trust it as a whole product that's continuously improved. This oil is not advertised as based on PAO or esters.

Various racing oils may be based on really truly synthetic base which in principle should be the most resistant to high temperature oxidation and decomposition, and also even better at cooling. It's usually described as "smart molecules sticking to metal" or something similar that has been used in advertising ever since the synthetic oils first appeared. The question is whether that extreme "film strength" makes any real difference for this engine which is worth exchanging for other properties of a well rounded oil with all certifications.
It's a matter of what you believe, as it's easy to figure, because apparently they recommend Mobil 1 AFE 0W20 for racing, which can be bought cheaply at Walmart.

They probably recommend Mobile 1 due more to a sponsorship than protection. This is a very important aspect in the oil industry that can’t be denied.

 

[Gruber]

They probably recommend Mobile 1 due more to a sponsorship than protection. This is a very important aspect in the oil industry that can’t be denied.

That's for sure, but also these oils probably work as well as anything else.

 

[AR-Delta]

My concern with oils is always pressure at RPM. 0w20 is perfect at normal operating temps, but when the oil heats up and thins out, is it providing the pressure and protection you need?

Not saying run a 0w40 or anything, but a strong 5w30 like 300V will provide protection and hopefully keep the pressure up at high temps.

FYI, I logged a pressure drop on track because of temperature and 0w30 Motul 8100. Only solution is a thicker oil or a lot more cooling

 

[Centripetal]

My concern with oils is always pressure at RPM. 0w20 is perfect at normal operating temps, but when the oil heats up and thins out, is it providing the pressure and protection you need?

Not saying run a 0w40 or anything, but a strong 5w30 like 300V will provide protection and hopefully keep the pressure up at high temps.

FYI, I logged a pressure drop on track because of temperature and 0w30 Motul 8100. Only solution is a thicker oil or a lot more cooling

Please share the logs.

BTW, the Motul 8100 (assuming Eco-nergy) viscosity @100C is just barely over the 0W20 (9.3) range at 9.95 . In addition, it only has an API seal for SL, which is miles behind the current standard of SP. SL started in 2001, which is twenty years ago. Honda's recommends SM or greater for "other countries", which do not have access to quality oil and fuel like North America and EU.

 

[AR-Delta]

Please share the logs.

BTW, the Motul 8100 (assuming Eco-nergy) viscosity @100C is just barely over the 0W20 (9.3) range at 9.95 . In addition, it only has an API seal for SL, which is miles behind the current standard of SP. SL started in 2001, which is twenty years ago. Honda's recommends SM or greater for "other countries", which do not have access to quality oil and fuel like North America and EU.

I’ll see if I can get them uploaded, it was recorded over a 20 min session so not sure how large that would be ??‍
And yes, the eco-nergy is a pretty thin 30 weight, I thought it might be a good “in between” and turns out that’s not necessarily the case.

 

[kefi]

I’ll see if I can get them uploaded, it was recorded over a 20 min session so not sure how large that would be ??‍
And yes, the eco-nergy is a pretty thin 30 weight, I thought it might be a good “in between” and turns out that’s not necessarily the case.

You can use my site www.datalo.gs to share logs. The forum won’t let you upload it unless you zip it up first.

 

[James3spearchucker]

My concern with oils is always pressure at RPM. 0w20 is perfect at normal operating temps, but when the oil heats up and thins out, is it providing the pressure and protection you need?

Not saying run a 0w40 or anything, but a strong 5w30 like 300V will provide protection and hopefully keep the pressure up at high temps.

FYI, I logged a pressure drop on track because of temperature and 0w30 Motul 8100. Only solution is a thicker oil or a lot more cooling

I am surprised that you did not run Motul's 300V on track. Remember that racers use pretty heavy oil. I have used 0-40 Motul X-Max and that is better than what you ran. Don't pay any attention at all to the label. Look up the complete specs online on the company website. I use 0-40 LiquiMoly Synthoil in my 1.5t and it seems decent. Like Centripetal mentioned above your viscosity at 100 should be a little higher and the HTHS number should be 3.5 or higher.

 

[Nivola]

Viscosità HTHS a 150°C (302°F) ASTM D4741 3.5 mPa.s

 

[AR-Delta]

I am surprised that you did not run Motul's 300V on track. Remember that racers use pretty heavy oil. I have used 0-40 Motul X-Max and that is better than what you ran. Don't pay any attention at all to the label. Look up the complete specs online on the company website. I use 0-40 LiquiMoly Synthoil in my 1.5t and it seems decent. Like Centripetal mentioned above your viscosity at 100 should be a little higher and the HTHS number should be 3.5 or higher.

I didn’t want to run a thicker oil than needed without some data to back it up. I’ve only had my Hondata for a couple of events and didn’t run into issues the first time.

I agree though, ratings mean little when taking the oil to the extremes, but people should gather data before they make a decision. A 5w40 might be too thick for the engines clearances under normal use, but perfect at the track ??‍

 

[James3spearchucker]

I didn’t want to run a thicker oil than needed without some data to back it up. I’ve only had my Hondata for a couple of events and didn’t run into issues the first time.

I agree though, ratings mean little when taking the oil to the extremes, but people should gather data before they make a decision. A 5w40 might be too thick for the engines clearances under normal use, but perfect at the track ??‍

Yeah I hear you and I was concerned and conservative when I first purchased my car. Nobody wants to wreck their car or have anything happened to it, and usually something DOES happen to it in its first year almost BECAUSE I was so worried about it! I was there.

So, looking at just the Motul 8100 products, but you could scan any brand, you can see that what will affect cold start up, during summer, can be measured via viscosity at 40 Celsius and a 0w20 Eco-Lite oil has around 45 mm ²/s and at 100 Celsius has around 8.4 mm²/s, while their 5w30 has like 65/11 respectively and the X-Max 0w40 has 76/13.5 mm²/s respectively So, what you really want to do is bring up the hot protection a bit. The LiquiMoly I am using, 0w40 Synthoil was tested to protect very well and it flows to -48 degrees Celsius but that will no longer happen anywhere even Siberia. My hot viscosity is 14.1 mm²/s so it is almost double the Eco-Lite 0w20 and I prefer to have quiet-running engine and good protection over loud-running, and slightly easier cold-start spinning. I feel like my efficiency will be better from lower friction. Many people think that a thinner oil will always be more energy efficient but they fail to factor the increased friction that a light oil with some degree of fuel dilution will suffer. If fuel is even minimal volume, such as 2-3%, it will still reduce viscosity so why not start a little higher point? Eman stated in his teardown video that he believes 0w20 is way too light and I agree with him. He recommends 5w30 at a minimum and so do I, as long as it is a very good oil.

 

[Centripetal]

All this paranoid redesign... Engineers worry enough for you with calculations and testing.

Lets start with some basic properties:

1. An increase of viscosity will decrease flow of oil
2. As viscosity decreases, so does friction
3. When temperature increases, viscosity decreases

Using the lubricant-temperature model for journal bearings, we have the following equation for the rise of oil temperature in a journal bearing.

ΔT = fFωD/2cQ

where all but the following can be considered constant,
f - friction
Q - oil flow

From the following, one can see that a higher viscosity oil (increase of f and decrease of Q) will result in a higher temperature increase of oil in the bearing.

To make things simple, lets assume flow (Q) is proportional to viscosity. Now, lets assume that 0W-20 oil had a temperature of 100°C. Viscosity of Honda Oil is 8.8 cSt 100°C. Where LiquidMoly 0W-40 has a viscosity of 13.4 cSt @ 100°C. Therefore, translating into a decrease of flow of about 50%, which translates into a 50% rise in temperature for the 0W-40. If we assume the 0W-20 oil had a rise of temperature of 25°C, then the rise of temperature for the 0W-40 would be 37.5°C. Considerably closer the the high temperature shear viscosity temperature 150°C.

I feel like my efficiency will be better from lower friction. Many people think that a thinner oil will always be more energy efficient but they fail to factor the increased friction that a light oil with some degree of fuel dilution will suffer. If fuel is even minimal volume, such as 2-3%, it will still reduce viscosity so why not start a little higher point?

I think this statement is misleading. I've never had any fuel dilution in my FK8. If you do, you probably don't drive it until it's warmed up. In other words, a hard parker. Secondly, there are tests in the oil standards that evaluate wear with fuel dilution. Therefore, the fear about compensating for something that will likely not happen is kind of paranoid.

Eman stated in his teardown video that he believes 0w20 is way too light and I agree with him. He recommends 5w30 at a minimum and so do I, as long as it is a very good oil.

This statement is misleading. If you watch the video, he states that before he has even disassembled the engine. Furthermore, he does even inspect the crank bearings. Therefore, his recommendation is not based on the engine tear-down.

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