Ignition Timing and Horsepower

arnoldo

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Interesting. I’ve never had a Flashpro. I was looking at Hondata’s page and thought ignition timing, at least the ethanol advance maps were open based on this:

https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/index.html?ethanol_tuning.htm

That’s what I saw that had seemingly higher values I though might account for the greater claimed power. I know I’m on shaky ground comparing different cars on different dynos... but when it looked like they were using greater ignition advance, I thought it might be making the difference. Ktuner has the base ignition map, an ethanol advance map (the one I thought Flashpro was showing was open and possibly an equivalent) and then the table that controls the % implementation based on ethanol concentration. I’ve never used ethanol previously, but have added +1 to a upper portion of the ethanol basemap while running 93.

Thanks for the info. I’ve got more reading to do. :thumbsup:
Hondata seems to be picky in terms opening ethanol tuning for 1.5T. I have no access to ethanol tuning for my ECU but I saw Hondata open ethanol tables for the US ECU. I have not seen ethanol related tables so I cannot comment on this.
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Hondata seems to be picky in terms opening ethanol tuning for 1.5T. I have no access to ethanol tuning for my ECU but I saw Hondata open ethanol tables for the US ECU. I have not seen ethanol related tables so I cannot comment on this.
told ya to switch to @KTuner my region ecu have ethanol available haha probably more features to come in the future.
 

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I am on Hondata Flashpro so we obviously have different way of tuning ignition. Hondata doesn't open ignition timing tables. They only open Knock Ignition Limit table for ignition adjustment.

If I try to translate Hondata Flashpro to KTuner, my knock ignition limit would look like this (22 PSI):
2nd Gear - 4
3rd Gear - 3
4th Gear -2.5

This conversion is based on datalog run and datalog examination. The ignition advance of the actual ignition may not be accurate because I only get access to Knock Ignition Limit Low table to adjust ignition timing.
Hondata and KTuner edit the same ignition table. Hondata just erroneously calls it "knock ignition limit", nor is it based on gear.
 

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This question doesn't have a simple answer.

You can advance ignition and not pick up any power if you have enough octane, just like you can advance too far and lose power before hitting a knock condition.
I am complete agreement too many factors. I will say timing advance inc
In our 1.5ltr turbo application, how much is +1 degree of ignition timing advance worth in horsepower? This is with all else being equal (Temps, air/fuel ratio, boost pressure, etc).




Personal Notes Below on Ignition Advance in what gears: Please Disregard
Gear - Ignition (All 21.5psi@WOT)

Ktuner Stage 2
2nd Gear - 1
3rd Gear - 0
4th - 0

TSP Stage 1
2nd Gear - 3.5
3rd Gear - 2.5
4th - 2.5

Drob Custom Tune - (93 Octane)
2nd Gear - 5.5
3rd Gear - 4.5
4th - 4

Boostane Premium Octane Booster - Drob Custom
2nd Gear - 7
3rd Gear - 5.5
4th - 5.5

Boostane Pro Tune (Myxal Tune)
2nd Gear - 7.5
3rd Gear - 7
4th - 6
too many variables but one reason you get knock is timing advance increases cylinder temps cause expansion of gas is earlier and the piston being higher up creates a higher compressed during burn conditions. Much like higher compression engines. It’s often not thought about. It has nothing to do with burn speed. It’s also why when you add more boost you often have to back off timing. Power return eventually becomes diminishing from boost and timing and has no value. Much like overboosting small turbo just create heat. A better test set up would be to pick a target boost and afr then add timing and test. Too many factors to guess what one degree adds in power. Even humidity has a factor in power gain.
 
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too many variables but one reason you get knock is timing advance increases cylinder temps cause expansion of gas is earlier and the piston being higher up creates a higher compressed during burn conditions. Much like higher compression engines. It’s often not thought about. It has nothing to do with burn speed. It’s also why when you add more boost you often have to back off timing. Power return eventually becomes diminishing from boost and timing and has no value. Much like overboosting small turbo just create heat. A better test set up would be to pick a target boost and afr then add timing and test. Too many factors to guess what one degree adds in power. Even humidity has a factor in power gain.

This question doesn't have a simple answer.

You can advance ignition and not pick up any power if you have enough octane, just like you can advance too far and lose power before hitting a knock condition.

This is a great discussion and learning. I really appreciate everyone's response. I apologize ahead of time for asking a question that is too generalized, as I see often times on Facebook, forums, etc.

I will try to 'reverse engineer' my question then.

For an example's sake, lets say I am at 21-22psi (Of course even this is variable depending on the humidity, air density, altitude, etc....I understand this. Trying to simplify). I'm on a dyno! My current ignition advanced is maxed out, at peak power, in the gear I am dyno'ing at. With this ignition advance I am at, adding more has dimishing returns. No more power is gained but I will eventually start losing power the further I advance. Also, the octane fuel I am using is good enough to keep advancing my ignition without any knock or detonation. The dyno operator has a perfect, steady temperature range and humidity is controlled. No heat soaking takes place during the runs and temps are kept consistant.

NOW.......if I decrease my ignition by one degree, how much of a power loss could I theoretically expect to lose? A concrete power loss number is not necessary. A power loss range is fine. And asking specifically for our 1.5ltr turbo platform as I know it could be different on a 5.7ltr diesel truck, etc. :)
 
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This is a great discussion and learning. I really appreciate everyone's response. I apologize ahead of time for asking a question that is too generalized, as I see often times on Facebook, forums, etc.

I will try to 'reverse engineer' my question then.

For an example's sake, lets say I am at 21-22psi (Of course even this is variable depending on the humidity, air density, altitude, etc....I understand this. Trying to simplify). I'm on a dyno! My current ignition advanced is maxed out, at peak power, in the gear I am dyno'ing at. With this ignition advance I am at, adding more has dimishing returns. No more power is gained but I will eventually start losing power the further I advance. Also, the octane fuel I am using is good enough to keep advancing my ignition without any knock or detonation. The dyno operator has a perfect, steady temperature range and humidity is controlled. No heat soaking takes place during the runs and temps are kept consistant.

NOW.......if I decrease my ignition by one degree, how much of a power lose could I theoretically expect to lose? A concrete power loss number is not necessary. A power loss range is fine. And asking specifically for our 1.5ltr turbo platform as I know it could be different on a 5.7ltr diesel truck, etc. :)
I’ve researched in and off for the answer of this for awhile... and look at a lot of off-CivicX sites.
Honda Civic 10th gen Ignition Timing and Horsepower B63F9F16-7DF9-4D13-9D80-F636C48F9909

While the example Ktuner gives in their help pages shows 0 as the value in their table... in actuality, it is a maximum of 5.
Honda Civic 10th gen Ignition Timing and Horsepower 8ACD1C61-2227-4F2F-94EA-C668A40A1689

http://www.ktuner.com/KTunerHelp/flex_fuel_tuning_4.htm

...and based on what appears to be a ~40 whp difference w/the only difference being timing. ***Edit: I don’t know if just by using ethanol, if there are changes in cylinder pressure that raise torque to increase power as well. I understand how ethanol acts to raise octane. I’m not 100% if there’s any other method by which it raises power w/o any boost or timing changes*** By default, there is no boost added. That works out to about 8 whp/degree or unit... though each degree closer should have diminishing returns until it does nothing or you’re knock limited and k.cont rising takes out any advance you tried to apply.

The thing I was curious about was... if Hondata is claiming 265 whp... a ~20 whp improvement over KTuner 23# basemap + their up-to +5 ethanol advance... while Hondata is using a value of up to +8, then this extra +3 would work out to ~7 whp per additional degree or unit.

Everything is still relatively linear and seeming to improve. Again: Different cars... different dynos and I have no idea if base ethanol tables differ... or even if it’s all scaled the same. I was just looking at what was out there regarding ethanol basemaps/reflashes and the different ethanol advance values in the maps along with the different dyno claims jumped out at me. TSP Stage 2 does some good things but it has more midrange torque than I’m comfortable with and the power peak at 5000 RPMs is a bit of a downer. I don’t know how Hondata’s ethanol enable looks so nice up top.

The idea did intrigue me as to whether or not Hondata’s ethanol advance map could simply be applied to Ktuners for a similar ~20 whp improvement.

These are some of the more interesting things to chat about for the platform. I’ll always not know far more than I do but after a lot of years of doing odds and ends on cars... it’s only been since having this car I’ve had a peek into what goes on in an ECU.

The ethanol kit ought to be here sometime this week. It may just sit and collect dust for a bit until I decide what to do. I know I’m not interested in any additional torque in the midrange than what basemaps/TSP 1 gives... but more power up top is always welcome.
 
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I’ve researched in and off for the answer of this for awhile... and look at a lot of off-CivicX sites.
B63F9F16-7DF9-4D13-9D80-F636C48F9909.jpeg

While the example Ktuner gives in their help pages shows 0 as the value in their table... in actuality, it is a maximum of 5.
8ACD1C61-2227-4F2F-94EA-C668A40A1689.png

http://www.ktuner.com/KTunerHelp/flex_fuel_tuning_4.htm

...and based on what appears to be a ~40 whp difference w/the only difference being timing. ***Edit: I don’t know if just by using ethanol, if there are changes in cylinder pressure that raise torque to increase power as well. I understand how ethanol acts to raise octane. I’m not 100% if there’s any other method by which it raises power w/o any boost or timing changes*** By default, there is no boost added. That works out to about 8 whp/degree or unit... though each degree closer should have diminishing returns until it does nothing or you’re knock limited and k.cont rising takes out any advance you tried to apply.

The thing I was curious about was... if Hondata is claiming 265 whp... a ~20 whp improvement over KTuner 23# basemap + their up-to +5 ethanol advance... while Hondata is using a value of up to +8, then this extra +3 would work out to ~7 whp per additional degree or unit.

Everything is still relatively linear and seeming to improve. Again: Different cars... different dynos and I have no idea if base ethanol tables differ... or even if it’s all scaled the same. I was just looking at what was out there regarding ethanol basemaps/reflashes and the different ethanol advance values in the maps along with the different dyno claims jumped out at me. TSP Stage 2 does some good things but it has more midrange torque than I’m comfortable with and the power peak at 5000 RPMs is a bit of a downer. I don’t know how Hondata’s ethanol enable looks so nice up top.

The idea did intrigue me as to whether or not Hondata’s ethanol advance map could simply be applied to Ktuners for a similar ~20 whp improvement.

These are some of the more interesting things to chat about for the platform. I’ll always not know far more than I do but after a lot of years of doing odds and ends on cars... it’s only been since having this car I’ve had a peek into what goes on in an ECU.

The ethanol kit ought to be here sometime this week. It may just sit and collect dust for a bit until I decide what to do. I know I’m not interested in any additional torque in the midrange than what basemaps/TSP 1 gives... but more power up top is always welcome.
HUGE thanks for your response! This is what I was looking for. If I could outline this in gold, I would. :thumbsup:


I'm not looking to get some idea around this just for this platform but future platforms for a general type of guidance. For instance, I know that on my next vehicle, if I operate my turbo at the edge of it's efficiency map, I may have some room to advance the ignition so many degrees (Before knock and/or no more hp gain or even a loss). If I encounter knock first, I know I can add higher octane if I am trying to make an extra specific amount of horsepower. Some know I go about chasing some 1/4 mile number or trap speed. If I am going so fast in the 1/4 mile and I am trying to achieve that next level (Say 13.4 to 13.3 in the 1/4) I can use some calculator to determine how much theoretical amount of horsepower I need to make to achieve this and if using higher octane (Race gas, ethanol, Boostane, etc) will help me achieve these goals with more timing advance. I know I could use better tires for more grip, get a better 60ft time, shift better/faster, cooler air, etc, etc. Just focusing on this one aspect here though. ;)

An extra +7 to +8whp (Possibly) is significant per advance....for my purposes.

Everything helps!
 
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One more thing guys, if I could dyno my car, I'd have paid to find out this information. I'd ask for my ignition to be retarded by 1 degree from where I'm at (Probably up to 4 degrees) and do multiple dyno runs. Just to have an idea of what my power looks like. I love testing things like this but I simply can not dyno this CVT. Paying $$$ for this better than me hitting the casino anyways. :p
 

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HUGE thanks for your response! This is what I was looking for. If I could outline this in gold, I would. :thumbsup:


I'm not looking to get some idea around this just for this platform but future platforms for a general type of guidance. For instance, I know that on my next vehicle, if I operate my turbo at the edge of it's efficiency map, I may have some room to advance the ignition so many degrees (Before knock and/or no more hp gain or even a loss). If I encounter knock first, I know I can add higher octane if I am trying to make an extra specific amount of horsepower. Some know I go about chasing some 1/4 mile number or trap speed. If I am going so fast in the 1/4 mile and I am trying to achieve that next level (Say 13.4 to 13.3 in the 1/4) I can use some calculator to determine how much theoretical amount of horsepower I need to make to achieve this and if using higher octane (Race gas, ethanol, Boostane, etc) will help me achieve these goals with more timing advance. I know I could use better tires for more grip, get a better 60ft time, shift better/faster, cooler air, etc, etc. Just focusing on this one aspect here though. ;)

An extra +7 to +8whp (Possibly) is significant per advance....for my purposes.

Everything helps!
The only way to quantify it is via a dyno... and there are a few good off-site threads I’ve seen that discuss ignition timing advances and then dynoing to see the effect. The only dyno comparison I think that’s worth a damn is the Ktuner 23# vs the Ktuner 23# ethanol advance one as I assume they’re are same car and same dyno. I know the value is +5.

It may be erroneous on my part to try to compare 2 different cars, in 2 different locations using different dynos and utilizing 2 different tuning devices which may not have the same base values to adjust from. They could actually be making roughly the same power... or Ktuner’s could be higher in actuality.
 
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...I did go back and look at deltas... since deltas are important.

Hondata: 200.8 to 265.2... so right at ~65 whp (peak)

Ktuners maps don’t have hard numbers but their stock car dynos closer to 180 whp and looks to peak around 245 whp. Their claim is “75wtq, 60-65whp midrange, 65whp peak to peak”... so regardless of different dyno numbers and numbers I was focusing on in Hondata’s ethanol tables... the deltas looks like they’d be on top of each other (shrug). There may well be no substantial difference.
 
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One more thing guys, if I could dyno my car, I'd have paid to find out this information. I'd ask for my ignition to be retarded by 1 degree from where I'm at (Probably up to 4 degrees) and do multiple dyno runs. Just to have an idea of what my power looks like. I love testing things like this but I simply can not dyno this CVT. Paying $$$ for this better than me hitting the casino anyways. :p
Let's say, for simplicity 's sake, that the first 4 or 5 additional degrees will add 20ish whp on the base engine at 20ish psi, at 6000rpm
Beyond that, you will be getting a couple ponnies per degree, or maybe not. Knock does not seem to occur until you have added 8 or more, however it will not be worth the added risk (I'm sorry you had to find out first hand)
 

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Let's say, for simplicity 's sake, that the first 4 or 5 additional degrees will add 20ish whp on the base engine at 20ish psi, at 6000rpm
Beyond that, you will be getting a couple ponnies per degree, or maybe not. Knock does not seem to occur until you have added 8 or more, however it will not be worth the added risk (I'm sorry you had to find out first hand)
Yeah... the seemingly linear changes are anything but. There was some good reads I happened upon I’ll have to track back down. They basically said boost first... always. When the turbos just pushing hot air... back off a little and switch to timing, but after the torque peak.

That is the most basic advisement given and w/o reading data logs and knowingwhat to look at with a dyno to back up incremental changes... there’s no way of knowing if you’re actually improving anything substantially or where it’s appropriate to give up in boost and switch to timing tweaks. You can watch k.cont and see if it wants to rise on you to negate the timing advance... maybe see if IATs are getting extra high I suppose as the turbo is saying “nope”. (shrug) Maybe see if MAF (I don’t have that particular one up on Tunerview) ...but if actual airflow goes no higher regardless of manifold pressure... or at least really tapers on you.
 

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The above is my experience from 3 dyno sessions on a base 1.5
Back pressure will remove power before the turbo reaches maximum flow. So I had to switch to ignition quite early. In one of my tests 5 6 degrees would add 30ish whp with STOCK boost map (16.2psi at 5500)
The Si turbo will allow for some more flow before running into back pressure issues. Still, ignition will provide lots of power for long.
Big turbo logs show that boost will get you closer to max power and a few degrees of ignition will be enough.
 

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Don't forget, the stickers add like 5hp each.. ?
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