Honda Reveals 2017 Civic Si Coupe and Sedan (205 HP / 192 LB-FT)

[Apeks]

I agree with this by and large. The one wrench I'll throw in this equation is that the GTI is selling at a considerable discount through mid 2018. Part of it is due to VW's recent legal woes; the other is buyers holding off until the revised powertrain hits the USDM market.

With that said, you can get a well equipped GTI Sport with HIDs/LSD/Performance Pack for around 24.5K - around the projected MSRP of the Si. Factor in the market demand for the next 6 months, and the GTI could be a heck of a deal for those who aren't concerned about a sunroof or long term ownership costs.

That is a good point. Depending on the criteria the GTI is an excellent option. I think it is an excellent car overall I had a lot of fun in a '16 PP GTI i tried late last year. It can scoot! Has it been confirmed that the US will get the upgraded GTI engines? Because in Canada it was stated that we'll only be moving up to the 220hp tune across the board and not the 227hp and 245hp tunes. So the base and PP GTIs will have the 220hp engines in Canada. If anyone knows for sure about how that will work in the states that would be good to confirm for you guys.

So the prices in Canada are a different story than in the states because we aren't seeing discounts as deep due to many factors like market size, strength of dollar etc. However, we'll be getting touring equipped Sis with full LEDs, wireless charging, heated rear seats etc for a comparable amount to the US exchange rate it looks like. So the base GTI could be about 5-6k more than a touring equipped Si. The value proposition is a little different here. But even disregarding the pricing, I would still think the Si is worth a hard look. A 200hp lightweight sport sedan with an LSD that can hit almost 40mpg on the highway is kind of tempting to me. If this car can end up pushing 230-250hp safely with a tune and light mods if I decide to mod it, that would be a lot of fun for me. All depends on the test drive at this point.

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[dmitri]

So what's the trade off? Get a car that makes us grin for 10+ years? Or one that makes us smile for 5 years and then bang our heads against the wall after that?

I'm sure that not having to bang your head against a wall would make you smile more.

It's all about how long you are planning to keep the car, IMO.

If you're planning to keep it for 10+ years -- go for reliability; otherwise go for everything else and don't look back.

Life's full of trade-offs...

 

[Design]

All you guys who are kicking the GTI tires at the VW dealerships cuz of the huge discounts have probably never owned a VW. My wife and I owned one and never again. It was the worst. Owned many BMW's, MB even Hummer and all were great cars. Honda kills VW in reliability which is well below even the industry standard. The VW just seems like it draws those people who can't afford BMW, MB Audi but so desperately want a German car.

I don't think anyone here will disagree. But knowing that many owners swap their cars at the end of the warranty period (or lease), the GTI offers a compelling value in its current discounted state.

The ownership experience past 80-100K is where Honda shines.

Has it been confirmed that the US will get the upgraded GTI engines?

I believe it will be another year (mid 2018) before the USDM market gets the new powertrain.

 

[zx2down]

You've never filled out a JD Power survey on any car? You may "hate" the data, but the huge sampling of participants is far more accurate than your anecdotal evidence. Sure there is always the exceptions, but if your a betting man wouldn't you put your money on a Lexus over a Land Rover? Actually I already know your answer, because you hate this type of statistical data, you'd probably ask your neighbor who owns a Land Rover.

Nope. never and that in itself makes it flawed as the vocal minority will speak up more than the satisfied customer and screw the numbers. The trend may be right, but it won't be very accurate.

 

[Apeks]

I believe it will be another year (mid 2018) before the USDM market gets the new powertrain.

Hopefully you are right, from what I heard it was an issue of European vs North American gas quality that allowed VW to tune the GTI and R engine for more power this cycle. Since the gas in Canada isn't quite as high grade as the Euro stuff we're left with the PP engine as our "upgrade". But at least maybe you yankies can get the actual upgraded engines. Who knows, maybe we'll get those too later on as well. We'd just lag behind Europeans a bit.

 

[thaseint]

Wouldn't the absence of having to bang your head against a wall make you smile more? Easy choice, to me...

That depends. I mean life is too short to play it safe sometimes.

I could theoretically get a Corolla and get it to last 10+ years...I wouldn't grin or smile during those years, in fact I'd probably contemplate driving off an overpass to commit suicide every time I got in it; but one things for certain, I would have a problem free 10+ years with the car.

The Si seems like a decent middle ground but I'm unsure if 5 years from now I'll be bored with it. That was one of the issues with my EP3. It was a fun car handling was and I loved the exterior but I was always telling myself "I can't wait to swap in a K20A2!" At the time I got it, it was the most powerful car I had ever driven. I never got around to swapping the motor because I just never had the time/resources.

Now I'm just looking for a car I don't have to tinker with, something I can buy that has everything I want from the factory that I won't have to mess with...the Si fits the bill nicely for now but I have my doubts long term in the SPM column. The GTI fits the bill nicely for now as well; but long term fails the practicality test.

 

[mPlasticDesign]

I don't think anyone here will disagree. But knowing that many owners swap their cars at the end of the warranty period (or lease), the GTI offers a compelling value in its current discounted state.

The ownership experience past 80-100K is where Honda shines.

That's true, it only gets worse beyond the warranty period for VW, but who wants to visit the dealership more than they have to in the first 1-2yrs? That's what these surveys are based on. The honda has a big weight advantage that can not be ignored. I think the SI will prove to be an over achiever if any thing. If the gearing is done right, the car will be plenty fast and will handle better than a car that weighs 250-300lbs more. Just look at the skidpad numbers the tests are showing on the non-SI hatchback. The performance is going to be very similar(SI vs GTI), in the end people will buy what they like. Personally, the GTI is god awful boring in the design dept.

Nope. never and that in itself makes it flawed as the vocal minority will speak up more than the satisfied customer and screw the numbers. The trend may be right, but it won't be very accurate.

The only thing that is flawed is your logic. You're assuming the vocal majority will be concentrated on VW over Honda or Lexus for that matter? In fact, I would argue that when you go up the price range and the luxury bracket the customers become more demanding and even unrealistic sometimes because they just dropped some serious coin on a car. They expect it to be perfect. You have nothing to support your claims that the numbers are somehow inaccurate other than your own personal assumptions. The fact that you are 35% more likely (per 100 cars) to encounter a problem with your VW than a Honda is huge. Just cuz you don't like the numbers, doesn't mean you can dismiss them as false or inaccurate.

 

[zx2down]

The only thing that is flawed is your logic. You're assuming the vocal majority will be concentrated on VW over Honda or Lexus for that matter? In fact, I would argue that when you go up the price range and the luxury bracket the customers become more demanding and even unrealistic sometimes because they just dropped some serious coin on a car. They expect it to be perfect. You have nothing to support your claims that the numbers are somehow inaccurate other than your own personal assumptions. The fact that you are 35% more likely (per 100 cars) to encounter a problem with your VW than a Honda is huge. Just cuz you don't like the numbers, doesn't mean you can dismiss them as false or inaccurate.

It has nothing to do with how I feel about the numbers. The fact is ALWAYS true. People unhappy with a product are more likely to speak up about it. I manage a helpdesk that sends out feedback forms to thousands of users. I would say of the people that bother to fill them out, maybe 30% of the people give feedback, and of that maybe 10% is positive. The rest is negative. If a person has nothing negative to say they are less likely to respond. Also going off that I know that execs are the LEAST likely to respond at all happy or not. So I would not be surprised if luxury brands got the LEAST replies back.

 

[Tuishimi]

People unhappy with a product are more likely to speak up about it.

I too worked in/sort of still work in customer service and you are absolutely right about that.

Another factor is customer service. The better the dealer/customer service treats you, the better your outlook on the vehicle. My wife owns a mini, that thing could blow up and we wouldn't care because the dealership treats you better than royalty. You leave that place thinking you are the most important person in the world...

 

[Eddie]

I too worked in/sort of still work in customer service and you are absolutely right about that.

Another factor is customer service. The better the dealer/customer service treats you, the better your outlook on the vehicle. My wife owns a mini, that thing could blow up and we wouldn't care because the dealership treats you better than royalty. You leave that place thinking you are the most important person in the world...

When the labor rate is $150 an hour you should feel that way when you leave

 

[Tuishimi]

When the labor rate is $150 an hour you should feel that way when you leave

LOL! That too!

 

[mPlasticDesign]

You guys are missing the point. It's number of problems per 100 vehicles. Why would someone with a Toyota or Honda not complain the same or hide their dissatisfaction compared to VW? They wouldn't. There is just less issues with cars at the top of that JD power list and that many more issues with the cars at the bottom of the list. And that is during the honeymoon period of ownership.

 

[zroger73]

A big question for me, as someone who plans to drive their next car for the next 10+ years, are the costs associated with the adaptive suspension system.

The only other Honda that I know of (in the US anyways) that has adaptive suspension is the MDX (Advance Package). A single shock/strut ranges anywhere from $600-800 and there are no aftermarket solutions that I know of. Non-adaptive MDX struts cost around $160. Seems like some MDX drivers with adaptive suspension end up just disabling their adaptive suspension and buying standard MDX shocks/struts due to sticker shock.

I realize that having adaptive suspension on a sub-$30k is cool; but I really wouldn't like to see a $2400-3200 parts bill when it came time to replace the shocks/struts. Fortunately, it's not something you have to do too often but still something to consider.

Good points. Honda doesn't seem to have much experience with adaptive suspension systems, but they probably outsourced the expertise and parts, anyway. I'd be less concerned with reliability and more about replacement cost and availability in the long term if you wanted to retain stock functionality.

Back in the early-90s, Cadillac used an adaptive suspension system called CCR (Computer Command Ride). Like the upcoming Civic Si's system, (but unlike newer systems that use magnetorheological dampers) it utilized solenoids to redirect the flow of hydraulic through two different paths resulting in "normal" and "firm" damping. It was troublesome (but not as much as the old V8-6-4 variable displacement system of the 80s). Replacement struts were so expensive that Cadillac stopped selling them. Any vehicles that came in to the dealer needing replacements were fitted with mechanical versions and the CCR system option was turned off in the vehicle's computer via the climate control panel.

 

[Design]

The Si's adaptive dampers are an extension of the dual mode system found in the '15-16 CTR. It's a budget version; but the CTR's was quite good according to Euro reviews.

 

[PirelliPZero]

A big question for me, as someone who plans to drive their next car for the next 10+ years, are the costs associated with the adaptive suspension system.

The only other Honda that I know of (in the US anyways) that has adaptive suspension is the MDX (Advance Package). A single shock/strut ranges anywhere from $600-800 and there are no aftermarket solutions that I know of. Non-adaptive MDX struts cost around $160. Seems like some MDX drivers with adaptive suspension end up just disabling their adaptive suspension and buying standard MDX shocks/struts due to sticker shock.

I realize that having adaptive suspension on a sub-$30k is cool; but I really wouldn't like to see a $2400-3200 parts bill when it came time to replace the shocks/struts. Fortunately, it's not something you have to do too often but still something to consider.

The MDX system uses magnetorheological (MR) dampers, which is considered the best of its kind in the industry, used on select Ferrari cars, the Corvette, Audi R8.

Description of MR damper:

These dampers are built and tuned specifically for the MDX and offer the ability to individually adjust from minimum to maximum damping force in as little as five milliseconds (0.005 sec.). Their ability to do this hinges on the principle of electromagnetic induction. Each damper carries a field coil that generates an electromagnetic field when current is passed through it. Special proprietary damper fluid contains microscopic (on the order of 10 microns in diameter) ferric spheres that align when surrounded by the electromagnetic field, dramatically and instantly changing the effective fluid viscosity. Not only is the overall range of damping force available significantly more than that of a conventional damper, but there are literally hundreds of steps within that range.

The current that passes through the field coils is controlled by an electronic control unit (ECU) that uses special algorithms to determine the best setting for the road conditions. This combined with nearly instantaneous reaction time of the dampers allows damping control to occur before the vehicle’s tires or body are allowed to have any extraneous motion.​

The FK2 CTR also used MR dampers:

The Adaptive Damper System utilises multiple sensors to monitor the car’s status in milliseconds. In real-time, the current to the electromagnetic coils inside the dampers is adjusted, altering the oil flow channels and thereby controlling the damping force. It enables continuous independent control of each wheel to deliver exceptional road holding performance.​

The FK8 CTR does not use MR dampers. It will use a simpler three-chamber adaptive unit. The three chambers represent settings for Comfort, Normal, and +R.

The Si will use two-chamber units, representing settings for Normal and Sport.

The description of the Si dampers shows how far less complex they are than the MR dampers. No independent control of each individual wheel, no proprietary damper fluid and electromagnetic fields, no hundreds of steps of range constantly and instantly adapting.

Si dampers:

In normal driving mode, damping fluid in all four dampers flows through valving at a relatively high volume, offering less resistance and more compliance over bumps.

When the driver pushes the SPORT button, a solenoid in each damper receives a signal to alter the valving to a more constricting position, making the damper firmer on both the compression and rebound strokes.​

Naturally they'll be more expensive than basic dampers to replace, but nowhere close to the MDX/MR damper cost.

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