HONDA EARTH DREAMS ENGINE LAWSUIT FILED FOR CR-VS AND CIVICS

bangminah

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So, if I let my Sport Hatch idle for 15-30 seconds and then keep it under 2K rpm until operating temp I should be good?

This is quite concerning, figures this car would be too good to be true
Is that really such a shocking precaution to take? From what I've understood, that should be the standard for driving any non-electric car. Doesn't matter if people drove hard right off the bat on previous cars, this should be normal if you're concerned about wear and longevity.



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Design

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Good video on oil dilution if anyone is interested.

He's a little cryptic with his choice of words but his advice is spot on IMHO. Driving longer distances is probably the best method of managing fuel dilution aka "burning the witch at the stake" lol.

He doesn't go out and say it; but he is leading towards a recommendation of using higher quality oil (or changing more often) when adding power mods or making frequent visits to the track. Which is probably common sense to most of us.
 
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Andre80

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There are 3 possibilities here:

3. Oil dilution is an issue but there is no simple/inexpensive fix. If this was true, Honda would stay quiet as long as possible. The idea here would be to deal with the really bad cases on an individual basis, and ignore the overall problem. If it only seriously manifests itself years from now, there will be a new generation of engines by then, or even a redesigned 1.5T, and the damage to the brand might be lessened as only the "old" cars will be affected. This would also allow them to keep selling the current generation and not have the problem affect sales on a large scale. Once the cars are of a previous generation and not for sale anymore, the problem will have a lesser impact on new sales.

I am guessing #3.

in China there, they have already made a new version that will be mounted on accord, you guys escape the important threads
https://m.autohome.com.cn/share/art...eline&from=timeline&from=timeline
I understand that the engine has been revised to heat up faster

■ Add a coolant partition to the cylinder liner of the cylinder to increase the warming speed

The second generation of 1.5T engine cylinder water jacket has added a coolant partition inside, which is not available in the previous generation engine . After installing this coolant baffle, the coolant in the water jacket is reduced, which helps to increase the temperature of the coolant at the water jacket position faster, thereby speeding up the engine warming up.


It can be seen that for the first generation of 1.5T engine oil increase, all Honda improvements are to increase the engine warm-up speed as soon as possible, and did not replace the crankcase ventilation system related components. It seems that the official believes that the increase in the first generation of 1.5T engine oil is not caused by the crankcase ventilation system, but by the slow engine warm-up speed. Is the official judgment of Honda accurate? It will take time to verify.


● Editor's summary:

Honda's second-generation 1.5T engine incorporates an exhaust-side VTEC valve lift control system and switches to a low-inertia diagonal turbocharger for better performance in terms of power performance and fuel economy. Honda's second-generation 1.5T engine is optimized for cylinder head, cylinder block, cooling system and ECU/TCU software tuning, speeding up engine warm-up, allowing gasoline or water mixed with engine oil to evaporate as quickly as possible, and through the crankcase The ventilation system is re-conducted into the cylinder for combustion, which in principle can better solve the problem of oil increase that may occur on the first generation 1.5T engine. As for the actual effect, we will see the results when this winter arrives. (Photo / text / photo car home Chang Qinglin)

the solution there is, put a motor preheater with remote control or timer, webasto type
the solution is there, put a motor preheater with remote control or timer, webasto type, I'm seriously thinking about it, but it costs about 1000 euros installed
 

Gruber

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All this talk doesn't make much sense without numbers. What is the fraction of fuel in oil in a 1.5T engine without defects at specific driving conditions? What is the percentage drop in viscosity that is common in most cars? In an engine without defects the oil dilution should reach a plateau and stay there. The more fuel in the oil the harder it is to keep it there if the engine even ever gets hot at all. Unless there is a huge fuel blowby due to a defect, or the PCV is not working, the fraction of oil can't keep increasing forever. This is the most important point.

My oil level has been over the top mark when I checked for the first time after buying the car and stays there after over 4200 miles.

I suspect, if not for the expected fuel dilution Honda would be recommending [10W15] 0W15 oil... Those worrying their oil might get too thin can use heavier weight oil. And change more often than MM would want. Problem solved.
 
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hobby-man

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Is that really such a shocking precaution to take? From what I've understood, that should be the standard for driving any non-electric car. Doesn't matter if people drove hard right off the bat on previous cars, this should be normal if you're concerned about wear and longevity.
2K RPM is totally overkill IMO. You're not supposed to drive the engine hard before it hits operating temp, which means don't run it to like 5k - redline. You can shift at 3500 RPM and actually move the car without hurting it.
 

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I've expressed my opinion on the problem as I see it from Honda's point of view. You're trying to tell me... What exactly? I'm not sure what your point is.
Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. These should be avoided without concrete evidence. Some of us are using blackstone labs oil analysis. Many are frequently checking the level of oil on their dipstick. Hundreds of people paying attention here. What are you doing besides spreading FUD?
 

joecin

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Anybody hear of letting the engine idle for a few seconds before shutdown for the turbo?
 

hobby-man

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Anybody hear of letting the engine idle for a few seconds before shutdown for the turbo?
Yes, you obviously won't hurt anything by idling before shutdown but I'm pretty sure that rule came about after running turbo engines hard. In those cases, the turbo is extremely hot from prolonged use and shutting the engine down right away would allow the turbo to "cook" the standing oil around it.

If you pull off the highway and drive a couple miles to your destination, put around a parking lot, and then park it, you've generated so little boost the turbo is relatively cool by this point and you could just turn the engine off. But again, if you want to idle for 30 seconds or whatever, you won't hurt anything.
 

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Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. These should be avoided without concrete evidence. Some of us are using blackstone labs oil analysis. Many are frequently checking the level of oil on their dipstick. Hundreds of people paying attention here. What are you doing besides spreading FUD?
Lol, so you're saying people are sending their oil in for analysis and frequently checking the levels (which, you know, everyone else does with their non-1.5T brand new cars, totally normal), and yet I am the one spreading FUD because I don't think Honda has an easy/cheap fix for the issue.

Okay. :rolleyes1:
 

Micah

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Lol, so you're saying people are sending their oil in for analysis and frequently checking the levels (which, you know, everyone else does with their non-1.5T brand new cars, totally normal), and yet I am the one spreading FUD because I don't think Honda has an easy/cheap fix for the issue.

Okay. :rolleyes1:
I'm saying those of us who care about the quality of oil in our cars and do not trust the 3000-5000 mile OCI myth, take steps to be aware of things. Frequently checking the oil level is recommended in the owners manual.
RTFM

http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/OM/AH/ATBA1717OM/enu/ATBA1717OM.PDF

upload_2018-8-31_11-6-20.png


A "fix" isn't needed until something is proven "broken".
 

Design

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Anybody hear of letting the engine idle for a few seconds before shutdown for the turbo?
Probably an overkill on stock.
https://www.civicx.com/threads/taking-care-of-the-turbo-lots-of-starts-stops.1773/page-2#post-36305

Lol, so you're saying people are sending their oil in for analysis and frequently checking the levels (which, you know, everyone else does with their non-1.5T brand new cars, totally normal)
To be fair, even the owners manual recommends checking the oil level every fill-up (EDIT: treed by Micah). :) Most of us running UOAs aren't doing it because we think something is wrong. We are more interested in how our driving habits (and mods) impact wear patterns. I recently switched to Mobile 1 AFE and learned that I probably need to step up the OCI if I run a tune (or switch oils). I won't be running another UOA until I actually modify my operating parameters or cross 100K.

I think we all agree that 1) some fuel dilution will always be a side effect of DI, and 2) aside from a few fringe cases, it's not proving to be a problem.
 
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Negan

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I'm saying those of us who care about the quality of oil in our cars and do not trust the 3000-5000 mile OCI myth, take steps to be aware of things. Frequently checking the oil level is recommended in the owners manual.

A "fix" isn't needed until something is proven "broken".
And I am saying that checking the oil frequently should be unnecessary on a brand new Honda. You're not driving an old Chrysler. What it says in the manual is again CYA from Honda. A properly running engine does not need you to look at its dipstick on a weekly basis.

It is a fact that there is a problem. The only question is what percentage of 1.5Ts are affected, and how badly. It could be that 99.99% are fine. It's not a matter of spreading fear, but it's also a matter of not sticking your head in the sand. There is a flaw in at least some 1.5Ts. My point is that if Honda could easily fix it, even in that small percentage of owners, they would via a TSB.

To be fair, even the owners manual recommends checking the oil level every fill-up (EDIT: treed by Micah). :) Most of us running UOAs aren't doing it because we think something is wrong. We are more interested in how our driving habits (and mods) impact wear patterns. I recently switched to Mobile 1 AFE and learned that I probably need to step up the OCI if I run a tune (or switch oils). I won't be running another UOA until I actually modify my operating parameters or cross 100K.

I think we all agree that 1) some fuel dilution will always be a side effect of DI, and 2) aside from a few fringe cases, it's not proving to be a problem.
It's fine to do UOAs to check the effect of mods. However, a lot of folks are running UOAs to check for oil dilution levels. I much more frequently see someone post a UOA result and talk about oil dilution, than talk about wear patterns from their tune.

Plus, the issue is not that there is oil dilution, it's the magnitude of it.
 

Gruber

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It is a fact that there is a problem. The only question is what percentage of 1.5Ts are affected, and how badly. It could be that 99.99% are fine. It's not a matter of spreading fear, but it's also a matter of not sticking your head in the sand. There is a flaw in at least some 1.5Ts. My point is that if Honda could easily fix it, even in that small percentage of owners, they would via a TSB.
A problem affecting 1 car in 10,000 (99.99% ) is what car manufacturers call "no problem." Honda can fix it cheaply and easily by giving each of the affected owners a new car (2-3 cars per month in the US) . They can fix it even cheaper by replacing the engine. They can fix it even cheaper than that by replacing whatever caused the problem in each car (faulty injectors, piston rings, PCV system, whatever). Whatever causes the "hyper oil dilution" is not the same thing that causes "oil dilution".

How can you even dream that 0.01% defect rate is a problem? I can assure you there is some flaw in some Honda Civics at a rate expressed in cars per 100, not in cars per 10,000.
 

Design

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the issue is not that there is oil dilution, it's the magnitude of it.
The 1.5T UOAs all say it's not a problem. If it was, we'd see VERY low viscosity readings and higher wear metals beyond the FF.

In my experience, the high fuel dilution readings in DI trace back to a few common factors:
  1. When the oil is sampled
  2. How the vehicle is driven
  3. Ambient conditions
If you do a lot of idling or short trips, which has the potential to drive up FD readings, the MM is going to recommend more frequent oil changes to help combat any premature loss in viscosity/sheer protection. That's true for any DI platform - not just Honda's.

And if anyone else is still truly concerned about it, I suggest going with Micah's suggestion and run an occasional UOA. My 2 cents...
 
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HondaPro

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Honda wants to shower us in gas.



 
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