Honda dealership used 0W-40 engine oil instead of 0W-20 / 0W-30 / 5W-30 for my 1.5T

[thetracker]

The winter rating is 0 for both, so the cold capabilities of both oils should be similar. The 40 rating means the oil will keep its characteristics even at higher temperatures, like track driving, so I would not be worried about it.

I would change the oil more regularly though, 16k km between changes is a lot with short trips and oil dilution.

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[Gruber]

Meanwhile I could talk to the dealer and he told me what I expected him to say: "The 0W-40 is better than the 0W-20".

I'm still confused, I've read about some people on the forum who use 0W-40 for their CTRs or 1.5T on hard track days or some use it with with a specific tune. Then on the other hand I stumbled across posts with comments like "I wouldn't even use 0W40 on my lawnmower".

Their thinking at your dealer is simple: if it's good for Volkswagen or Opel or BMW it must be good for a Honda. And they are not wrong.

We are talking about less than 1.5 viscosity factor here, between 20 and 40 weight. Which will be even less, as the 40 may get a little hotter locally (and even in bulk) so the viscosity will drop a bit more relative to the 20, while the oil pressure will increase a bit, so the flow will not be affected so much.

I myself don't see a reason to go higher than 30 weight in my car. It seems like 30 weight oil has been just the oil viscosity sweet spot for all 4-stroke Otto cycle gasoline street cars built between 1920 to 2045. (For lawnmowers too.)

The engine oil viscosity is always a compromise, because it affects different parts in different ways. People use heavier weights for racing, and some engines actually need it, but for these Honda engines improving wear protection may not necessarily be the most critical issue. The hit on local cooling, including the turbo and the pistons may or may not be more important. And then a lower viscosity oil may clean better and less friction means a couple more horses.

"Follow the manufacturer recommendation" sounds like the genius solution, and it probably is, for most owners. But there is also no doubt that the manufacturer's motives and priorities leading to these recommendations, while certainly not opposite, are also not exactly identical to the motives and priorities of every owner.

 

[julianzh]

$170 per oil change. Your civic cost more to maintain then gti haha

 

[GermanCivic]

@julianzh
Keep on dreaming, an oil change for a GTI at a VW dealership is arround 260 EUR, which is 315 USD lol

 

[Dranzell]

An oil and filter change in Romania costs about 70-80 EUR at a Honda dealership. If you add the pollen filter and full inspection, it goes to about 220-230 EUR. All prices include the 19% VAT.

Prices are definetly artificially inflated in Germany.

 

[Chaucer]

Unless you’re track driving in very hot weather, I think 0W-40 is a little thick for these cars. Personally I’d take the car back and tell them change it again and do it right this time. Don’t let them charge you again.

I don’t know how it is over in Germany, but here in the USA dealerships tend to employ high schoolers to do stuff like oil changes and tire rotations. So while I normally don’t like to shit on other mechanics (I’m an aircraft mechanic), they don’t really count, and I wouldn’t accept any B.S. reason/ excuses they tell.

 

[vasilas432]

My first oil change was a 0-30. What is going on with the dealership?
Next time I won’t stay if they don’t have 0-20 in stock.

 

[James3spearchucker]

@julianzh
Keep on dreaming, an oil change for a GTI at a VW dealership is arround 260 EUR, which is 315 USD lol

This is the story of the two sides to the coin.

So yes 0w40 has higher film strength and better high temp capability about double the 0w20 but it is also double thick at cold start-up. Read the technical specifications. CentiPoise and CentiStokes are equals by the way and look at 0 degrees rating. You will see the lighter stuff is 40 CentiPoise and a thicker 0w40 is 85, but depends on brand and spec. Also you should remember that the piston is not as tight at start-up as when hot so if the oil there is thicker and at bearings too, you will be ok when hot but generally the flow rate will be a little slower throughout. Not to make this thing too complicated but I would not worry about one time but going forward but if you want a bad ass oil in 0w40 it is made in Germany LiquiMoly Synthoil. The better oils will feature some Ester molecules and adhere to metal better for the cold start-up. For summer also the 0w40 is excellent but for winter in Germany 5w30 or 0w30 if the specs show you a viscocity at 0 degrees perhaps close to 50 then you be better than 85. Do not pay attention to the bottle label. Read the specs.

Bonus tips:
The tools needed to change your own oil are few: flathead screwdriver and philips for the splash shield. 15 or 17mm socket for drain plug. A jack or use the one in trunk to lift one side. drain pan. I prefer using torque wrench to get drain plug spec right at approx 33 lf/ft. I pay 36 Euros for 5L of the LiquiMoly oil and have extra for the next change. I use Honda filter and crush washer. The job is messy, very!! I use 6 rubber gloves and half a roll of shop towels. Wind is a problem. Avoid doing if its windy.

Fumoto makes these nice brass drain valves that once torqued eliminate ever having to use torque wrench again. They are made in Japan and I have yet to drain my oil with it but hopefully it make that less messy.

Drain and replace interval should not be 16,000 km. Pollution and fuel dilution are problems but if you live where the air is very nice then maybe its not a big problem. Still when more and more fuel percentage is in the oil, its not the best but using heavier oil counters the thinning. I change my own oil about three times a year. 38 Euros a pop.

Final tip: You will notice that a lighter oil will spin a little easier and these Honda motors are ok with it but heavier oils make the engine feel a little quieter. Warm up is easier with lighter oil but I don't use 0w20 by itself usually. Honda specified 0w20 for highest economy but for longevity I think 0w30 or 5w30 from Motul or LiquiMoly are the best balance.

 

[Gruber]

So yes 0w40 has higher film strength and better high temp capability about double the 0w20 but it is also double thick at cold start-up. Read the technical specifications. CentiPoise and CentiStokes are equals by the way and look at 0 degrees rating. You will see the lighter stuff is 40 CentiPoise and a thicker 0w40 is 85, but depends on brand and spec.

I just want to correct this part.

cP and cSt are not the same or equal. Actually, they can't even be compared, because they are physical units of different physical quantities: dynamic viscosity and kinematic viscosity, respectively. It's like saying milligrams and millimeters are equals. The HTHS viscosity is usually measured as dynamic viscosity, so it's in cP.

But the following viscosity units are exactly equal and the same: 1 centiStokes = 1 mm2/s (kinematic) and 1 centiPoise = 1 milliPascalsecond (dynamic).

Btw. here is one example of differences between two different brand oils of the same viscosity grade, according to their mfgs:

at 40 °C:
Mobil 1 ESP 0W40 : 69 cSt; VI = 189; HTHS150 = 3.53
Amsoil Sig 0W40 : 84.6 cSt; VI = 184; HTHS150 = 3.76

The operating temperature viscosities at 100 °C are:
M: 12.9 cSt
A: 14.6 cSt (13 % more)

So the 0W40 Amsoil is a noticeably thicker oil, both cold and hot. It has a tiny bit worse VI, so it can be expected to thicken at very low T still a bit more than the Mobil 1. In exchange, it also offers a little (about 6%) higher HTHS150 dynamic viscosity.

 

[James3spearchucker]

I just want to correct this part.

cP and cSt are not the same or equal. Actually, they can't even be compared, because they are physical units of different physical quantities: dynamic viscosity and kinematic viscosity, respectively. It's like saying milligrams and millimeters are equals. The HTHS viscosity is usually measured as dynamic viscosity, so it's in cP.

But the following viscosity units are exactly equal and the same: 1 centiStokes = 1 mm2/s (kinematic) and 1 centiPoise = 1 milliPascalsecond (dynamic).

Btw. here is one example of differences between two different brand oils of the same viscosity grade, according to their mfgs:

at 40 °C:
Mobil 1 ESP 0W40 : 69 cSt; VI = 189; HTHS150 = 3.53
Amsoil Sig 0W40 : 84.6 cSt; VI = 184; HTHS150 = 3.76

The operating temperature viscosities at 100 °C are:
M: 12.9 cSt
A: 14.6 cSt (13 % more)

So the 0W40 Amsoil is a noticeably thicker oil, both cold and hot. It has a tiny bit worse VI, so it can be expected to thicken at very low T still a bit more than the Mobil 1. In exchange, it also offers a little (about 6%) higher HTHS150 dynamic viscosity.

??????????????

Bro give me some of whatever you are smoking! For real...I probably need some

First of all, when you look at the specifications, viscosity is given in either CentiStokes or CentiPoise and they are both measurements of viscosity. HTHS or High Temp High Shear is theoretically a measurement of shear of the liquid at a higher heat, measured at 150C but in reality the test requires equipment to measure the time and force required to push oil through a .15mm capillary 15-18mm and it is a good measure of both strength against shear and of resistance to the force, therefore OEM's are tasked with building engines running with oil HTHS (high heat viscocity)at 3.2 CentiPoise or less which you see is by measurement the same unit as kinematic viscosity only at raised temperature and in pretty good simulation of the narrow oil passages in an engine.

In theory, CentiStokes is dynamic viscosity (shear stress divided by shear rate) measured after kinematic viscosity is measured and is theoretically dynamic viscosity divided by density. But we usually only have so many actual units to measure Newtonian liquids with, essentially measuring space, time, and force only. Both kinematic and dynamic viscosity are units of the CGS or centimeter-gram-second system of measurement and in practice are equivalents of each other. Both units of measurements are equivalents and totally interchangeable in the real world, even though theoretically the stokes is a product of poise divided by density. Look at any conversion table and whatever is 50 CentiStokes is also 50 CentiPoise.

In my example, LiquiMoly Synthoil 0w40 has 83/14 viscosities at 100/40C temps and Valvoline 5w30 has 61/11, so the LiquiMoly has higher viscosity but its pour point is -48C while Valvoline is -36C, so its flow rate at the cold limit is better. Everything is a trade-off so whatever oil protects better also takes more energy to turn. I try to choose a good balance but lean on protection and today's oils are achieving great efficiencies while high film-strength and durability at high heat.

 

[Gruber]

??????????????

Bro give me some of whatever you are smoking! For real...I probably need some

First of all, when you look at the specifications, viscosity is given in either CentiStokes or CentiPoise and they are both measurements of viscosity. HTHS or High Temp High Shear is theoretically a measurement of shear of the liquid at a higher heat, measured at 150C but in reality the test requires equipment to measure the time and force required to push oil through a .15mm capillary 15-18mm and it is a good measure of both strength against shear and of resistance to the force, therefore OEM's are tasked with building engines running with oil HTHS (high heat viscocity)at 3.2 CentiPoise or less which you see is by measurement the same unit as kinematic viscosity only at raised temperature and in pretty good simulation of the narrow oil passages in an engine.

In theory, CentiStokes is dynamic viscosity (shear stress divided by shear rate) measured after kinematic viscosity is measured and is theoretically dynamic viscosity divided by density. But we usually only have so many actual units to measure Newtonian liquids with, essentially measuring space, time, and force only. Both kinematic and dynamic viscosity are units of the CGS or centimeter-gram-second system of measurement and in practice are equivalents of each other. Both units of measurements are equivalents and totally interchangeable in the real world, even though theoretically the stokes is a product of poise divided by density. Look at any conversion table and whatever is 50 CentiStokes is also 50 CentiPoise.

In my example, LiquiMoly Synthoil 0w40 has 83/14 viscosities at 100/40C temps and Valvoline 5w30 has 61/11, so the LiquiMoly has higher viscosity but its pour point is -48C while Valvoline is -36C, so its flow rate at the cold limit is better. Everything is a trade-off so whatever oil protects better also takes more energy to turn. I try to choose a good balance but lean on protection and today's oils are achieving great efficiencies while high film-strength and durability at high heat.

Sorry, what you wrote above doesn't make sense. It's not a matter of opinion or discussion, any more than the flat earth theory.

In the SI system the most commonly used unit of kinematic viscosity is m^2/s (meter squared per second) or mm^2/s; the unit of dynamic viscosity is Pascalsecond (or milliPascalsecond). You can NOT convert between these units, (sorry ) like you can't convert pounds to feet. You can't say one pound is equal to, or bigger than, one foot. Exactly the same way, you can't say cP and cSt are equal, or interchangeable, as you have written above and doubled down on it.

The dimension of the centiStokes in base SI units is:
1 cSt = 10^-6 m^2 /s

The dimension of the centiPoise in base SI units is:
1 cP = 10^-3 kg/(m*s)

(btw. You can frame the above and hang it over your bed.)

Do these two seem equal to ya? Same way 1 kg is not equal or smaller or larger than 1 kG. Same with lb and lbf. Not equal or comparable. One is mass, the other force.

These basics of physics are taught in high school in some countries, and in freshman college in the US. Just learn it, it's not rocket science, but you can't do rocket science without it. And, it will seem to you like any specs are black magic if you don't understand how dimensions and units work.
Please, ? try to be teachable and help others too, instead of being stubborn in your error. There is no need for you to keep it going.

 

[James3spearchucker]

Sorry, what you wrote above doesn't make sense. It's not a matter of opinion or discussion, any more than the flat earth theory.

In the SI system the most commonly used unit of kinematic viscosity is m^2/s (meter squared per second) or mm^2/s; the unit of dynamic viscosity is Pascalsecond (or milliPascalsecond). You can NOT convert between these units, (sorry ) like you can't convert pounds to feet. You can't say one pound is equal to, or bigger than, one foot. Exactly the same way, you can't say cP and cSt are equal, or interchangeable, as you have written above and doubled down on it.

The dimension of the centiStokes in base SI units is:
1 cSt = 10^-6 m^2 /s

The dimension of the centiPoise in base SI units is:
1 cP = 10^-3 kg/(m*s)

(btw. You can frame the above and hang it over your bed.)

Do these two seem equal to ya? Same way 1 kg is not equal or smaller or larger than 1 kG. Same with lb and lbf. Not equal or comparable. One is mass, the other force.

These basics of physics are taught in high school in some countries, and in freshman college in the US. Just learn it, it's not rocket science, but you can't do rocket science without it. And, it will seem to you like any specs are black magic if you don't understand how dimensions and units work.
Please, ? try to be teachable and help others too, instead of being stubborn in your error. There is no need for you to keep it going.

Ok, then explain to us what is the difference between kinematic and dynamic viscosity? As I said they are both complex measures of the CGS system, that both measure the resistance of liquid to motion. How would you in layman's terms explain to someone what the difference between the two is? I sincerely think that you have lost the plot and I encourage you to find your way back. I will leave crumbs, okay??

I will give you 2 hints bro....

How is viscosity measured? A cylinder is filled with a liquid and it then it is released and the time it takes in capillary flow, is then measured in time and the variables of space and mass are standardized, as I pointed out all viscosity measurements factor in the following three variables: space(mm), time(seconds), and force(kg, pascal). But what are we trying to measure? First, shear forces, and then those shear forces, mass-dependent. Also, a round sphere, often steel, is placed into a cylinder and it is filled with a liquid, then the time it takes to drop, due to gravity is measured. So, both methods measure viscosity, but technically, we are supposed to be measuring shear of molecules over one another.

Let's break this down a little further. What is mass? Your mass is the same no matter where you go in the universe; your weight, on the other hand, changes from place to place. (But generally humans exist on Earth and no other planet at this time) Mass is measured in kilograms; even though we usually talk about weight in kilograms, strictly speaking it should be measured in newtons, the units of force. So, while mass is measured in a unit that we call weight, it is supposed to measure force, in Newtons, but in the real world, humans measure weight, on Earth in order to give us a measure of weight and mass, and that weight is simply listed in either pound or kilogram.

Now, there are several different ways of measuring shear stresses for oils. But, suffice to say that the biggest variable is temperature and SAE lists maximum viscosity for the ratings for oil at cold temperatures for every grade. A range is given. The difference in viscosity is remarkable. So, for 20 weight oil at -20 degrees Celsius, the max viscosity is specified as 60,000 CentiPoise. Raise the temperature to 100 degrees Celsius and the minimum kinematic viscosity is specified as 5.6 CentiStokes. Raise the temperature a little more to 150 degrees Celsius and the minimum high shear given is specified as 2.3 CentiPoise. This is all given in charts by the SAE. SAE is the Society of Automotive Engineers. The reason that they use the measures of CentiPoise and CentiStokes is because they can be used interchangeably. Similar to the Newton and the Kilogram, one measures technically force and the other mass, but when we measure something, we take certain things as a given, such as gravity. We don't start imagining that we are on the moon.

If you Google viscosity tables, for a specific gravity of 1. The table will show you that the liquid that is 1 CentiPoise aka 1 CPS and listed as cP on charts, is also 1 CentiStokes aka 1 CKS, listed on tables in cSt.

Now, go to different companies that manufacture motor oil and notice how they list specifications including viscosity. Tell me what you see?

LiquiMoly, Shell, Mobil 1, and Motul will all list "Kinematic Viscosity" in CentiPoise at 40 and 100 degrees Celsius(cP). Go to Amsoil and Pennsoil list Kinematic Viscocity in CentiStokes at 40 and 100 degrees Celsius (cSt)

Don't lose the plot man. Realize that if CentiStokes and CentiPoise were not able to be used interchangeably, the manufacturers would not be using them both.

The smart thing to do is not to get lost in what unit cSt and cP is and look at the practical extremes for cold pumping, pour point, look at your viscosity at 100 Celsius in cSt or cP and HTHS at 150. I also check out the wear mark measured by Piotr in his tests that he posts on YouTube. Some are heated and some are not heated to 100 C. Either way it adds to my data.

 

[David Harper]

Did they recently cut somewhat these VATs? Seems like several years ago they were well over 20% and in some countries even 25% and more.

My oil changes cost me:

Labor: 0$ (actually oil change pays me back because it gives me some exercise as I get under the car several times)
Oil filter: ~ $6.00 each or less for OEM Honda, $10 each if I use Mobil 1 after my A01 filters reserve is all gone and I usually don't spend more than that.
Oil: Mobil 1 full synthetic, $18 to $28 to refill, depending on which. The top of the range was for the Mobil 1 AP long-life oil they now discontinued, and I don't need long-life, so I won't use it again.
Washer: $0.25 China to $0.65 OEM.

The total has been then $27 to $43 including taxes (minus the free fitness bonus, the peace of mind bonus from knowing it was done right, and the "no damage to my bottom engine cover" insurance). The disadvantage is that to the dealer service I'm not a great customer.

It could be $18 total, including taxes, if I used a major store-brand full-synth oil, which has all the same top certifications and is generally considered a fine quality oil.

I would have written this exact same post. When you change your oil do you jack the car up ?
I put mine up on jack stands. I changed it once without raising the car but it's a PITA.

 

[David Harper]

Anyone who says "I wouldn't even put 0w40 in my lawnmower" doesn't know what he's talking about. A good synthetic like M1 european formula 0w40 is fine to use in our civics. Won't harm anything. The reason honda specifies 0w20 is about the CAFE standards for fuel efficiency.
nothing to do with engine protection.

 

[CastorX]

Anyone who says "I wouldn't even put 0w40 in my lawnmower" doesn't know what he's talking about. A good synthetic like M1 european formula 0w40 is fine to use in our civics. Won't harm anything. The reason honda specifies 0w20 is about the CAFE standards for fuel efficiency.
nothing to do with engine protection.

But in an EU car with automatic engine idle stop/start a less viscous oil (let's say 5w30 or 0w30) would be still somewhat better than a 0w40 I think. Just because theoretically it can reach all engine part somewhat faster. Not like it would really matter since almost everybody turns that damn thing off.

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