Honda dealership used 0W-40 engine oil instead of 0W-20 / 0W-30 / 5W-30 for my 1.5T

[CastorX]

I'm not familiar with the details on this particular engine's fiasco, but I know that Toyota put some fiasco piston rings in their engines around that time. Then they had a problem with repairing huge numbers of cars because of oil consumption issues.

If Toyota said the piston ring failures or increased oil consumption were due to owners using 30 or 40 weight oil instead of 20 weight, Toyota was shamelessly lying to confuse the issue and avoid responsibility.

After saying that, I have to also add that the panic about excessive oil consumption among many of the owners was much exaggerated.

The story with that particular 1.33L (EU Yaris, EU Auris/Corolla) engine -and I might be writing about the other engines you mentioned, maybe this is the same problem- was partially that they wrote bullshit in the manuals and partially a design problem. A Hungarian internet site/group tried to find out what caused the problem with these Toyota engines and they did a fairly thorough research in the topic together with dealerships, brand independent shops and car owners. It turned out that Toyota listed up all the viscosity "classes" in the manual:

Then they marked the 0w20 as "most recommended" and listed basically all oils as compatible/allowed and put ONE single sentence there saying something like 5w30 can also be used, but only for ONE oil change interval and then 0w20 must be used again. Not prohibiting the use of other oils btw. Later they say that if 10w30 (yes 10w!!!) is used and in cold weather the engine starts slowly then 0w20 or 5w30 is suggested. And even in the service manual they listed all oils above as compatible and the 0w20 as recommended. This led to the use of basically all oils. Which would have been fine but only for 15.000km max. The use of the the improper oil cause the (way too small) oil channels in the side of the piston to clog up after years of use this lead to oil consumption and also piston ring and piston damage and the coating on the side of the cylinder wall became damaged.

It also turned out that in case of the cars that used 5w30 but were regularly driven on long distances the problem did not appear or had just minimal oil consumption. The cars that they know of and were filled with 0w20 oil were basically all OK.
They actually described how that happened with the clogging up and why. They wrote something about heat transfer between the piston rings (yes, the piston rings again) and the cylinder wall and the "water-like" 0w20 oils and the longer drives with the warm 5w30 oils just caused the channels to clean up a bit/not clog up at all.
The thing is that Toyota knew what oil must be used and they even wrote it in the manual, when they mentioned that non-0w20 oil can only be used for 1 interval, but they spammed the whole "engine oil" section in the manual with unnecessary and controversial stuff.
It looks like they really should learn how to make piston rings and write manuals.
I hope that the 2.0L gasoline engine in the first gen RAV4 does not have such problems because my parents just bought one (mostly for work).

 

[latole]

Dealer may not have the 0-20 in stock and don't what to loose the sale ?

 

[Gruber]

The story with that particular 1.33L (EU Yaris, EU Auris/Corolla) engine -and I might be writing about the other engines you mentioned, maybe this is the same problem- was partially that they wrote bullshit in the manuals and partially a design problem. A Hungarian internet site/group tried to find out what caused the problem with these Toyota engines and they did a fairly thorough research in the topic together with dealerships, brand independent shops and car owners. It turned out that Toyota listed up all the viscosity "classes" in the manual:

Then they marked the 0w20 as "most recommended" and listed basically all oils as compatible/allowed and put ONE single sentence there saying something like 5w30 can also be used, but only for ONE oil change interval and then 0w20 must be used again. Not prohibiting the use of other oils btw. Later they say that if 10w30 (yes 10w!!!) is used and in cold weather the engine starts slowly then 0w20 or 5w30 is suggested. And even in the service manual they listed all oils above as compatible and the 0w20 as recommended. This led to the use of basically all oils. Which would have been fine but only for 15.000km max. The use of the the improper oil cause the (way too small) oil channels in the side of the piston to clog up after years of use this lead to oil consumption and also piston ring and piston damage and the coating on the side of the cylinder wall became damaged.

It also turned out that in case of the cars that used 5w30 but were regularly driven on long distances the problem did not appear or had just minimal oil consumption. The cars that they know of and were filled with 0w20 oil were basically all OK.
They actually described how that happened with the clogging up and why. They wrote something about heat transfer between the piston rings (yes, the piston rings again) and the cylinder wall and the "water-like" 0w20 oils and the longer drives with the warm 5w30 oils just caused the channels to clean up a bit/not clog up at all.
The thing is that Toyota knew what oil must be used and they even wrote it in the manual, when they mentioned that non-0w20 oil can only be used for 1 interval, but they spammed the whole "engine oil" section in the manual with unnecessary and controversial stuff.
It looks like they really should learn how to make piston rings and write manuals.
I hope that the 2.0L gasoline engine in the first gen RAV4 does not have such problems because my parents just bought one (mostly for work).

I'm skeptical about the claim that the cars running on 0W20 wouldn't develop oil consumption. Most cars are running on the recommended oil grade, in particular so boring commuter cars. But the problem was widespread, to say the least. They would maybe get serious carbon deposits a bit later, because a thinner oil might form a bit thinner layers on cylinder walls, not carbonize as fast and also might clean better.

There is no such piston-cylinder set that requires low viscosity oil by design. The problem may have been with their miracle coating for low friction, which apparently had a limited life. The descriptions of these engines originating from Toyota still today have "carbon ceramide". Sounds like a space shuttle stuff, but this must be some bogus marketing name, or a mistranslation, because it doesn't make any sense chemically. I have no idea what "carbon ceramide" is.

The engines such as 2.4 L 2AZ-FE (like in 2007- Camry's) would be just fine until usually 100-120 kmiles. Then they would start consuming oil. Then after more miles they would slowly accumulate carbon deposits inside the cylinders and eventually start running poorly.

My daughter drove a 2007 Camry with this engine and at over 125 kmiles it was consuming oil. I switched from 5W20 to 5W30 and the consumption decreased to a completely manageable level. The engine run great with no issues ever, until the car was rear-ended and totaled.

I'm sure the piston rings were not designed for 0W20 oil only, and 0W20 (or 5W20 that was recommended and always used in that Camry, until it started consuming oil) would not prevent oil consumption. Most people, even in the US don't change their oil by themselves and I have never seen any place pushing any other oil grade than the recommended one. Yet practically all these cars developed oil consumption. I strongly believe the demise of the piston rings at higher mileage was an unpleasant surprise to Toyota. Any later oil viscosity restrictions were only a reaction to what was going on. Maybe a Hungarian web site thinks it's because of higher viscosity oils, but as far as I know, Toyota never said that.

 

[GermanCivic]

Dealer may not have the 0-20 in stock and don't what to loose the sale ?

Could be, but my guess is that they work with other car makers than Honda. Meaning they are a official Honda dealership but at the same time they're also dealerships for Alfa Romeo, Opel and Fiat. I think Honda is their smallest section.

 

[CastorX]

There is no such piston-cylinder set that requires low viscosity oil by design. The problem may have been with their miracle coating for low friction, which apparently had a limited life. The descriptions of these engines originating from Toyota still today have "carbon ceramide". Sounds like a space shuttle stuff, but this must be some bogus marketing name, or a mistranslation, because it doesn't make any sense chemically. I have no idea what "carbon ceramide" is.

Maybe a Hungarian web site thinks it's because of higher viscosity oils, but as far as I know, Toyota never said that.

I think these two engines are different. Toyota used the simple "nickel silicon carbide" (called Nikasil) coating in these 1.33 L engines I was talking about. And I'm sure these engines were never sold in the US. But the root cause of the problem can be the same. The official response form Toyota was that the cars were filled with the wrong viscosity oil and only 0w20 is and was allowed. This does not mean they tell the truth. And they also did not explain why Toyota dealers used oil other than 0w20. But in the case of this 1.33L engine the cars that used 0w20 ran fine (at least the ones they found and spoke with their owners) while cars used with other viscosity levels and were driven a lot in the city had oil consumption problem even before reaching 80.000 kilometres. Of course it might be that eventually all cars will develop such symptoms.

 

[GermanCivic]

Why are oil changes so expensive in Germany?

I'd say because prices are high and we also have a big amount of sales tax (19%). Even when you buy a car, you have to pay 19% legal VAT.

The prices on the invoice for my oil change are:
Labor: 40 EUR ~48 USD
Oil filter: 20 EUR ~24 USD
Oil: 92 EUR ~ 112 USD

By the way one gallon of gasoline is 5,6 EUR ~ 6,80 USD

 

[CastorX]

I'd say because prices are high and we also have a big amount of sales tax (19%). Even when you buy a car, you have to pay 19% legal VAT.

The prices on the invoice for my oil change are:
Labor: 40 EUR ~48 USD
Oil filter: 20 EUR ~20 USD
Oil: 92 EUR ~ 112 USD

By the way one gallon of gasoline is 5,6 EUR ~ 6,80 USD

92€???? I mean thats a lot for less than 4liters of oil.
Last time I payed 174€ for the oil change, oil filter, cabin pollen filter, inspection, and labor at my honda dealer. But i have to drive 45-55 min to reach them, I bought the car there and they are nice people so i don’t care. Plus when i came back i drive through the Schwarzwald.
Fyi the 0w40 is usually a very expensive and good oil. I used it once in my 8th gen eu hatchback civic just to try it. The car made whining some noise that came from around the vtc actuator then I put the 0w40 in it and drove with “elevated” rpm and also faster on the autobahn on a very long drive. And the noise was gone and never came back. (I’m not joking). I dont say it had something to do with it but theoreticall the 0w40 can cause higher oil pressures, that might have helped to clean the oil sludge the previous owner caused if that was the problem. I can’t prove it of course.

 

[CastorX]

Why are oil changes so expensive in Germany?

The company I work for payed around 200€ for oil change and 310€ for a battery replacement in a 6 years old Mercedes B-Class and that wasn’t even by a daimer dealership. But I don’t think the battery replacement would be much cheaper in an EU civic either.
I think the total for oil, oil change, oil filter, pollen filter, inspection, and battery replacement was 620€.

 

[Gruber]

I'd say because prices are high and we also have a big amount of sales tax (19%). Even when you buy a car, you have to pay 19% legal VAT.

The prices on the invoice for my oil change are:
Labor: 40 EUR ~48 USD
Oil filter: 20 EUR ~24 USD
Oil: 92 EUR ~ 112 USD

By the way one gallon of gasoline is 5,6 EUR ~ 6,80 USD

Did they recently cut somewhat these VATs? Seems like several years ago they were well over 20% and in some countries even 25% and more.

My oil changes cost me:

Labor: 0$ (actually oil change pays me back because it gives me some exercise as I get under the car several times)
Oil filter: ~ $6.00 each or less for OEM Honda, $10 each if I use Mobil 1 after my A01 filters reserve is all gone and I usually don't spend more than that.
Oil: Mobil 1 full synthetic, $18 to $28 to refill, depending on which. The top of the range was for the Mobil 1 AP long-life oil they now discontinued, and I don't need long-life, so I won't use it again.
Washer: $0.25 China to $0.65 OEM.

The total has been then $27 to $43 including taxes (minus the free fitness bonus, the peace of mind bonus from knowing it was done right, and the "no damage to my bottom engine cover" insurance). The disadvantage is that to the dealer service I'm not a great customer.

It could be $18 total, including taxes, if I used a major store-brand full-synth oil, which has all the same top certifications and is generally considered a fine quality oil.

 

[GermanCivic]

@GruberV
VATwas never higher than 19%. Denmark, Schweden and Norway have 25% VAT.

What a great price. Maybe I would do the oil change by myself, but I'm not owning a garage, not even talking about ramps or a hydraulic ramp.

But the oil would also be cheaper if you buy it online. You can get 5 Liters of that Mobil 1 ESP X3 0W-40 for €40 / $49. 0W-20 is even slightly cheaper.

@CastorX
That's incredibly expressive. But I've also heard prices like this from VW and Opel inspections.

But in Germany we also have the Drive-Thru oil changes, like MacOil. You don't need an appointment, you can sit in the car and watch the mechanic on a big screen, you'll pay a fix price, no matter if your car needs 4 or 12 liters of oil.

Complete price of a 0W-40 (Shell Helix Ultra) oil change is €80 / $97.

0W-20 (Shell Helix Ultra Professional) would be €100 / $121.

 

[CastorX]

Oil filter: ~ $6.00 each or less for OEM Honda, $10 each if I use Mobil 1 after my A01 filters reserve is all gone and I usually don't spend more than that.
Oil: Mobil 1 full synthetic, $18 to $28 to refill, depending on which. The top of the range was for the Mobil 1 AP long-life oil they now discontinued, and I don't need long-life, so I won't use it again.
Washer: $0.25 China to $0.65 OEM.

I compared the OEM part prices before (EU vs USA, but I dont remember exactly what parts I checked) and in the EU some parts costs twice as much. I don't know why. I mean, unlike here, there are a lot more Honda vehicles in America, but still... some parts are crazy expensive.
Thats from coxmotorparts and does not include shipping from the UK (yes, the UK where some these cars are built). The dealerships charge almost the same prices in Germany too, and there is no way (not that I know of) to buy these things cheaper if you want OEM.

 

[CastorX]

But in Germany we also have the Drive-Thru oil changes, like MacOil. You don't need an appointment, you can sit in the car and watch the mechanic on a big screen, you'll pay a fix price, no matter if your car needs 4 or 12 liters of oil.

Wow. Ok. Good to know, I've been here for a few years now but I never heared of that before.

 

[WF19]

Did they recently cut somewhat these VATs? Seems like several years ago they were well over 20% and in some countries even 25% and more.

My oil changes cost me:

Labor: 0$ (actually oil change pays me back because it gives me some exercise as I get under the car several times)
Oil filter: ~ $6.00 each or less for OEM Honda, $10 each if I use Mobil 1 after my A01 filters reserve is all gone and I usually don't spend more than that.
Oil: Mobil 1 full synthetic, $18 to $28 to refill, depending on which. The top of the range was for the Mobil 1 AP long-life oil they now discontinued, and I don't need long-life, so I won't use it again.
Washer: $0.25 China to $0.65 OEM.

The total has been then $27 to $43 including taxes (minus the free fitness bonus, the peace of mind bonus from knowing it was done right, and the "no damage to my bottom engine cover" insurance). The disadvantage is that to the dealer service I'm not a great customer.

It could be $18 total, including taxes, if I used a major store-brand full-synth oil, which has all the same top certifications and is generally considered a fine quality oil.

I'm with you, I always do my own because I can ensure I have the filter and the oil I want.

 

[Lifesabeach]

We get ripped off in the UK and wider EU for parts prices compared to the US and also VAT will more than likely go up from 20% in the UK as the pandemic has to be paid for.

We have already had 10 years of austerity with savage cuts to services thanks to the banks dropping us all in the shit and all those savings have been wiped out so its back to square one for god knows how long. Sorry rant over .....frigging covid!

 

[GermanCivic]

Meanwhile I could talk to the dealer and he told me what I expected him to say: "The 0W-40 is better than the 0W-20".

I'm still confused, I've read about some people on the forum who use 0W-40 for their CTRs or 1.5T on hard track days or some use it with with a specific tune. Then on the other hand I stumbled across posts with comments like "I wouldn't even use 0W40 on my lawnmower".

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