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high knock control and knock count?

kcvpr

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Just tuned my 2020 sport hatchback to the dual 21psi tune and drove it around for a while, omg is it fun now lol!

I noticed that my afr's seemed good 11.5ish on wot, ltfi and stfi were around 0 to -3. But know control got as high as 1.05 and wouldnt go lower than .85 at the end of the drive. Also my knock count went up to 35.

Im waiting for the return email from TSP to install the stage one tune, should i flash to something less aggressive until then? I live in CA so my gas quality probably isn't the best either...



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gtman

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Knock count isn't what I'd concentrate on. If you had 35 "knocks" in a matter of seconds it could be an issue. On an hour long drive, it isn't a big deal. Knock control is a big deal but you have to understand how it works. First off, when you upload a new tune, it will start out at .59 and then settle as you drive it sedately for a bit.

Knock Control will climb for various reasons. Lower octane or low quality gas, going up hills or load, high ambient temps, etc...

As far as you hitting 1.05 and then it not settling below .85, here's my best guesses.

1. Being in California you were using 91 octane at most (btw always use the best quality gas you can buy and buy from a busy station). The 91 likely means you mostly won't see .49 on an aggressive tune.

2. You just loaded the tune and were pushing the tune hard to test it's capabilities. Multiple WOT pulls, etcetera.

3. It probably was fairly warm outside during your drive and you possibly live in a hilly area.

And then there's this. On a non-Si, knock control is designed to shoot up anytime you accelerate past 5300 rpm or so. It's a safety feature to protect the engine. If you continue to push you car hard, knock control will continue to rise.

It's always best to monitor knock control and when you see it go up, back off for a bit until it settles back down. And if it's especially hot outside, don't push it quite as hard because turbos heat soak like mad and bog down. High knock control means reduces power.

As a experiment, take a 30 minute drive and just drive normally with maybe one WOT pull. Do a datalog and post it here or simply report back with your knock control numbers.
 
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captminer

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Knock count isn't what I'd concentrate on. If you had 35 "knocks" in a matter of seconds it could be an issue. On an hour long drive, it isn't a big deal. Knock control is a big deal but you have to understand how it works. First off, when you upload a new tune, it will start out at .59 and then settle as you drive it sedately for a bit.

Knock Control will climb for various reasons. Lower octane or low quality gas, going up hills or load, high ambient temps, etc...

As far as you hitting 1.05 and then it not settling below .85, here's my best guesses.

1. Being in California you were using 91 octane at most (btw always use the best quality gas you can buy and buy from a busy station). The 91 likely means you mostly won't see .49 on an aggressive tune.

2. You just loaded the tune and were pushing the tune hard to test it's capabilities. Multiple WOT pulls, etcetera.

3. It probably was fairly warm outside during your drive and you possibly live in a hilly area.

And then there's this. On a non-Si, knock control is designed to shoot up anytime you accelerate past 5300 rpm or so. It's a safety feature to protect the engine. If you continue to push you car hard, knock control will continue to rise.

It's always best to monitor knock control and when you see it go up, back off for a bit until it settles back down. And if it's especially hot outside, don't push it quite as hard because turbos heat soak like mad and bog down. High knock control means reduces power.

As a experiment, take a 30 minute drive and just drive normally with maybe one WOT pull. Do a datalog and post it here or simply report back with your knock control numbers.
Si & non Si the knock control are identical ;) the design or the map if that's what you meant.
 

gtman

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Si & non Si the knock control are identical ;) the design or the map if that's what you meant.
Everything I've personally experienced including datalogs I've checked from Si owners clearly show that knock control is more aggressive on non-Si turbos at high rpm.

Check out this thread by 27Won and the comment by D-Rob:
https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/what-is-knock-count-and-knock-control-defined.38412/

"Knock Control" = This parameter is the ECU's determination of fuel quality. Movement here indicates the knock sensor hears what it thinks is knock activity, and reports to the ECU to apply a steeper ignition retard to avoid continued knock activity. This value is dynamic, and WILL move from time to time.

On Civic Si models, there doesn't seem to be a forced rise at play at WOT like the non-Si 1.5T ECU's (which naturally rise above 5,200-5,400rpm regardless of sensor input). Movement that goes up and up and up and never comes down is more concerning than movement alone. Knock control can typically be manipulated down by driving the car in a higher gear at lower engine speeds and targeting atmospheric pressure on the MAP sensor reading.
And while the knock sensitivity tables are the same in Si and non-Si form, there are background behaviors in place that clearly cause a different reaction at high rpm in the real world between the two models.

I'm pretty certain Honda does this because of the somewhat weaker internals on the non-Si. And IMO it's a good thing that Honda is protecting our engines that way.
 
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kcvpr

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Knock count isn't what I'd concentrate on. If you had 35 "knocks" in a matter of seconds it could be an issue. On an hour long drive, it isn't a big deal. Knock control is a big deal but you have to understand how it works. First off, when you upload a new tune, it will start out at .59 and then settle as you drive it sedately for a bit.

Knock Control will climb for various reasons. Lower octane or low quality gas, going up hills or load, high ambient temps, etc...

As far as you hitting 1.05 and then it not settling below .85, here's my best guesses.

1. Being in California you were using 91 octane at most (btw always use the best quality gas you can buy and buy from a busy station). The 91 likely means you mostly won't see .49 on an aggressive tune.

2. You just loaded the tune and were pushing the tune hard to test it's capabilities. Multiple WOT pulls, etcetera.

3. It probably was fairly warm outside during your drive and you possibly live in a hilly area.

And then there's this. On a non-Si, knock control is designed to shoot up anytime you accelerate past 5300 rpm or so. It's a safety feature to protect the engine. If you continue to push you car hard, knock control will continue to rise.

It's always best to monitor knock control and when you see it go up, back off for a bit until it settles back down. And if it's especially hot outside, don't push it quite as hard because turbos heat soak like mad and bog down. High knock control means reduces power.

As a experiment, take a 30 minute drive and just drive normally with maybe one WOT pull. Do a datalog and post it here or simply report back with your knock control numbers.
Thanks for the reply.

That all makes sense, I do use top tier gas and 91 only in this car. But that’s not saying much cause it’s CA. I’ll go for another drive in a bit and see what happens.
 

captminer

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Everything I've personally experienced including datalogs I've checked from Si owners clearly show that knock control is more aggressive on non-Si turbos at high rpm.

Check out this thread by 27Won and the comment by D-Rob:
https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/what-is-knock-count-and-knock-control-defined.38412/



And while the knock sensitivity tables are the same in Si and non-Si form, there are background behaviors in place that clearly cause a different reaction at high rpm in the real world between the two models.

I'm pretty certain Honda does this because of the somewhat weaker internals on the non-Si. And IMO it's a good thing that Honda is protecting our engines that way.
if you say so then yes based on what was "said". not trying to argue but can you define background behaviours ? i do see all the other maps in the background that hondata or ktuner does not show if that's what you meant by the background behaviour ? it is the same. mine's a cvt & yes by default it's very sensitive but now it behaves much better.
agreed best not to mess with it too much a little lesser power is good for protection.
 

Gruber

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One of the "background behaviors" is the tiny bit lower compression ratio on the Si.
This works all the time, every cylinder cycle, regardless of boost, and the compression ratio in combination with forced induction is the principal reason for some cars requiring premium gas.
 
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kcvpr

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Knock count isn't what I'd concentrate on. If you had 35 "knocks" in a matter of seconds it could be an issue. On an hour long drive, it isn't a big deal. Knock control is a big deal but you have to understand how it works. First off, when you upload a new tune, it will start out at .59 and then settle as you drive it sedately for a bit.

Knock Control will climb for various reasons. Lower octane or low quality gas, going up hills or load, high ambient temps, etc...

As far as you hitting 1.05 and then it not settling below .85, here's my best guesses.

1. Being in California you were using 91 octane at most (btw always use the best quality gas you can buy and buy from a busy station). The 91 likely means you mostly won't see .49 on an aggressive tune.

2. You just loaded the tune and were pushing the tune hard to test it's capabilities. Multiple WOT pulls, etcetera.

3. It probably was fairly warm outside during your drive and you possibly live in a hilly area.

And then there's this. On a non-Si, knock control is designed to shoot up anytime you accelerate past 5300 rpm or so. It's a safety feature to protect the engine. If you continue to push you car hard, knock control will continue to rise.

It's always best to monitor knock control and when you see it go up, back off for a bit until it settles back down. And if it's especially hot outside, don't push it quite as hard because turbos heat soak like mad and bog down. High knock control means reduces power.

As a experiment, take a 30 minute drive and just drive normally with maybe one WOT pull. Do a datalog and post it here or simply report back with your knock control numbers.
I reloaded the dual 21psi tune with some different settings and setup the otf tunes. When I did that I drove around easy several miles, the kctrl initially stayed around .5 then went up to .7-.8 when I started driving it harder. It will go down slowly if I moderately accelerate.

Is the knock counter cumulative or something different? Because while I was driving with fresh flash, the knock count would go up 1-3 numbers every time I would start moving after a stop sign or stop light. It got up to the 50’s before I got on the freeway and it settled down. Should I be worried?

if I understand correctly, knock control is just the quantification of the engine compensating for the quality fuel to avoid detonation. Where as knock count is the count of how many times the cylinders have a detonation?
 

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So .59 RIGHT after flashing for the first time is normal? caaaause that's what mines at, haven't driven it, still in the drive way. what besides knock control should I be focusing on? I have iat2's, MAP, K. con., what else should I watch?
 

gtman

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I reloaded the dual 21psi tune with some different settings and setup the otf tunes. When I did that I drove around easy several miles, the kctrl initially stayed around .5 then went up to .7-.8 when I started driving it harder. It will go down slowly if I moderately accelerate.

Is the knock counter cumulative or something different? Because while I was driving with fresh flash, the knock count would go up 1-3 numbers every time I would start moving after a stop sign or stop light. It got up to the 50’s before I got on the freeway and it settled down. Should I be worried?

if I understand correctly, knock control is just the quantification of the engine compensating for the quality fuel to avoid detonation. Where as knock count is the count of how many times the cylinders have a detonation?
Knock control goes up with aggressive driving or high temps or load as I mentioned. When you upload a tune it will start at .59 and will be senstive to throttle changes. It takes some time to settle. Like I told you earlier, it's best to drive conservatively for a while before tearing into it.

Nothing you posted suggests you have a problem but like I requested earlier a datalog would have been good.

Knock count is a reflection of the misfire monitor and unless the number is very high, I wouldn't worry too much.

D-Rob explains it in detail:

""Knock Count" = This parameter is a reflection of the ECU's misfire monitor. It is NOT an accurate reflection of anything other than misfire events. When will you see these normally? Startup, rapid throttle closures, rapid throttle inputs, rapid release of the clutch pedal, and sometimes at idle (especially if you have a lighter flywheel/clutch combo, and/or plugs that have been gapped down to prevent spark blowout at high load). A completely stock car, operating perfectly will still accumulate these counts. In my experience with these engines, you will see more activity on cylinder four compared to others, as the crank position sensor is physically located closest to there on the block. This usually isn't a concern area unless you see a steep count in a very, very short time (like 50+ in a few seconds), which will likely trip a P0300-variant DTC code."

So .59 RIGHT after flashing for the first time is normal? caaaause that's what mines at, haven't driven it, still in the drive way. what besides knock control should I be focusing on? I have iat2's, MAP, K. con., what else should I watch?
Yes, .59 is where a freshly uploaded tune will start. K. Control, IAT's and fuel trims are the basic parameters a begininer should monitor.
 
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USNengineman

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Knock control goes up with aggressive driving or high temps or load as I mentioned. When you upload a tune it will start at .59 and will be senstive to throttle changes. It takes some time to settle. Like I told you earlier, it's best to drive conservatively for a while before tearing into it.

Nothing you posted suggests you have a problem but like I requested earlier a datalog would have been good.

Knock count is a reflection of the misfire monitor and unless the number is very high, I wouldn't worry too much.

D-Rob explains it in detail:

""Knock Count" = This parameter is a reflection of the ECU's misfire monitor. It is NOT an accurate reflection of anything other than misfire events. When will you see these normally? Startup, rapid throttle closures, rapid throttle inputs, rapid release of the clutch pedal, and sometimes at idle (especially if you have a lighter flywheel/clutch combo, and/or plugs that have been gapped down to prevent spark blowout at high load). A completely stock car, operating perfectly will still accumulate these counts. In my experience with these engines, you will see more activity on cylinder four compared to others, as the crank position sensor is physically located closest to there on the block. This usually isn't a concern area unless you see a steep count in a very, very short time (like 50+ in a few seconds), which will likely trip a P0300-variant DTC code."


Yes, .59 is where a freshly uploaded tune will start. K. Control, IAT's and fuel trims are the basic parameters a begininer should monitor.
the air fuel is "wideband" on the tuner layout right? i was looking all over for it until i saw it in another post. just making sure. the knock is down to .49 even when i WOT it so im pretty sure thats where it should be. what is the AFR supposed to be at relatively?
 

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Any news? How is everything going? I'm having the same issue...
 

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