Hey JR, two questions about the artificial rise in knock control in the non-Si's

[gtman]

So, since day one we base turbo guys have been dealing with the knock control jumping up at high rpm no matter how good our gas quality is. And personally I've been jealous seeing Si guy after Si guy talking about how their knock control hardly budges on good gas.

Then back in late October Hondata rolls out a feature that removes this artificial built in rise in the non-Si's. On paper, it sound likes one helluva feature. I read in D-Rob's blog that he views this as a Hondata advantage.

Anyway, the two questions for us KTuner users/fans.

1. Any plans for us getting this feature soon?

2. Are there negatives to using this feature?

Sponsored

 

[CAPTS]

So, since day one we base turbo guys have been dealing with the knock control jumping up at high rpm no matter how good our gas quality is. And personally I've been jealous seeing Si guy after Si guy talking about how their knock control hardly budges on good gas.

Then back in late October Hondata rolls out a feature that removes this artificial built in rise in the non-Si's. On paper, it sound likes one helluva feature. I read in D-Rob's blog that he views this as a Hondata advantage.

Anyway, the two questions for us KTuner users/fans.

1. Any plans for us getting this feature soon?

2. Are there negatives to using this feature?

There's always pros & cons, kcont is there to have some level of protection & in fact it is a good thing IMO but too much is not that good of course. To be specific the rise of "fake" knock happens around 5.3K RPM.


1. Likely USA ecu's will have them 1st if there are plans then other regions just have to wait till it's ready. I vote for a YES to have such feature but use with caution.

2. YES, some may not be able to identify real/actual knock pushing the limit too far then a kaboom !

 

[Gruber]

2. YES, some may not be able to identify real/actual knock pushing the limit too far then a kaboom !

This point I don't understand. If it's actually the case that only the "artificial" kcont increase can be canceled, which is caused automatically by just by a rpm point, than it would be clear to any tuned driver that now any kcont increase is real. So he would not dismiss it, and it would actually be safer.

1. Which brings back the question "what is the reason for this "artificial" kcont increase?" Why relying on actual knock detection was not considered safe enough by Honda, while at the same time, the general opinion is that the knock sensor is very sensitive.

2. Should that rise really be called "artificial," or maybe the sensitivity treshold is just set lower in non-Si engines? (maybe only above some rpm)

3. What is the reason they didn't do it to the Si - is it that Si owners are just more risk-tolerant? ? Doesn't seem like the compression ratios would make so much difference.

4. Are there any known differences in this regard between different non-Si ECU's (like Sport vs. others)?

I see a kcont increase to about 0.62 on even a short rev up like going up a hill with some power, but I haven't really noticed a power drop after that.

 

[arnoldo]

2. YES, some may not be able to identify real/actual knock pushing the limit too far then a kaboom !

This is won’t happen with +6 psi ots map as it is more conservative than KTuner ots 21 psi map. FBO needs to get Hondata tuner to tune the car correctly though if consumers want to disable artificial knock.

I would say full support ECU would be prioritized if KTuner decides to add this feature. The coverage should be wider than just the US ECU.

 

[CAPTS]

This point I don't understand. If it's actually the case that only the "artificial" kcont increase can be canceled, which is caused automatically by just by a rpm point, than it would be clear to any tuned driver that now any kcont increase is real. So he would not dismiss it, and it would actually be safer.

1. Which brings back the question "what is the reason for this "artificial" kcont increase?" Why relying on actual knock detection was not considered safe enough by Honda, while at the same time, the general opinion is that the knock sensor is very sensitive.

2. Should that rise really be called "artificial," or maybe the sensitivity treshold is just set lower in non-Si engines? (maybe only above some rpm)

3. What is the reason they didn't do it to the Si - is it that Si owners are just more risk-tolerant? ? Doesn't seem like the compression ratios would make so much difference.

4. Are there any known differences in this regard between different non-Si ECU's (like Sport vs. others)?

I see a kcont increase to about 0.62 on even a short rev up like going up a hill with some power, but I haven't really noticed a power drop after that.

#3 Si have slightly better (stronger) internals & other every little bit added together does make some difference although it's not by a huge margin.

#4 AFAIK all same except the Si & i'd assume type r too.

around 5.3K is where the drop is usually at but at or after 6K it tends to slowly climb back up or maintains.

 

[CAPTS]

This is won’t happen with +6 psi ots map as it is more conservative than KTuner ots 21 psi map. FBO needs to get Hondata tuner to tune the car correctly though if consumers want to disable artificial knock.

I would say full support ECU would be prioritized if KTuner decides to add this feature. The coverage should be wider than just the US ECU.

a custom tune from experienced tuner is always recommended in my books regardless of a regular DD or a very high powered tune with or without disabling or enabling certain features.

YES agreed wider support for various ECU would be AWESOME !

 

[gtman]

Here's my theory. Honda knows most base turbo users use 87. And some of that 87 isn't even really 87 so they implemented this kc scheme for protection. I get that.

But to those of us base or ots tuned guys running high octane, this 5250 rise is just a bit too much babysitting. I'll be smart enough to control myself with my right foot.

 

[arnoldo]

But to those of us base or otd tuned guys running high octane, this 5250 rise is just a bit too much babysitting. I'll be smart enough to control myself with my right foot.

This is tuning platform area.

Right now, Hondata is clear winner for consumers with stock turbo in terms of tuning because the new features available for all ECU supported by Flashpro. Just make sure to get the race version.

I'm stuck with KTuner because I have swapped with TD03 hybrid & Hondata torque limiter for CVT is really complex. I may not be able to maximize my calibration due to torque limiter with TD03 hybrid. I try to entertain myself by saying I could at least have quick adjustment & could tune my car safely with KTuner.

 

[KTuner]

1. Any plans for us getting this feature soon?

2. Are there negatives to using this feature?

You know, it's crazy, but I had already answered number one in a private message to you and told you that it was being looked into. I then "Liked" a comment where you mentioned that you hoped we look into it, offering an extra solidification about the answer. Now there's a new thread, so here's the same answer again.

I am working on it. Thanks for the enthusiasm for this topic, as you guys always seem to have. More discussion will follow when there's a feature to release. Thanks guys!

 

[NewCivicRs]

Hello Seniors, just want to share what I feel on road.

*Stock Intercooler*
Hot, sunny daylight 29-35 Celcius
-After few times of pulls, feel less torque, little bit power drop.

Cool night run/mountain climbing 19-28 Celcius
-Push to the seat so hard, torque steer quite a lot. Few times pulls, consistent delivery of power.

Regardless of knock control 0.65 or 0.49.

*For HKS Intercooler*
No much different between hot day or cold night, very similar power delivery.
I think IAT 2 is the reason why ECU retard ignition and cut boost level.

 

[kytos]

Thanks J.R. I know you will eventually deliver it.

I think IAT 2 is the reason why ECU retard ignition and cut boost level.

Not only ignition retard but there is also the benefit of more dense air charge with the upgraded fmic.

 

[D-RobIMW]

I love how people think features just happen in an instant.

 

[NewCivicRs]

Thanks J.R. I know you will eventually deliver it.


Not only ignition retard but there is also the benefit of more dense air charge with the upgraded fmic.

Yes, the Mainline Dyno shown power gain 12-15 Bhp after bigger FMIC upgraded even without *Retune*. Love it.

 

[kytos]

I love how people think features just happen in an instant.

To be fair I also wanted a clarification for this being in the works. It's sad how many different ECUs are there for the same model.

 

[arnoldo]

To be fair I also wanted a clarification for this being in the works. It's sad how many different ECUs are there for the same model.

All KTuner consumers want clarifications & hopefully partial support ECU consumers could also get clarification on tuning tables available for full support ECU but not available for partial support ECU.

I think this is a fair ask from consumers side, both consumers with full support & partial support ECU, unless KTuner give discounted pricing to partial support consumers.

Sponsored