Gen X k20c2 E85

rwk226

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Couldn't have said it better myself. This was my first brand new car I've purchased and as such I've grown attached. I also figured 2.0 > 1.5 for displacement and knew the 2.0s of the past were pretty robust when I went to purchase the car. I did not know that in order to slap on a turbo/supercharger you'd have to run a standalone ecu, custom order all engine internals because a lot of them aren't the same as the C1-C4s, and didn't know that aftermarket companies would overlook this engine configuration in favor of the turbos.

I spent a good amount of time looking up part numbers and seeing which were used in both the CTR and our 2.slows. Very few parts carry over and the ones that do aren't worth swapping because they will net you little gain if any. One of the main advantages the other K20C's have over this engine are oil cooling passages (and even the Type R still have heat soak and cooling issues like crazy so imagine it with our engines) as well as parts meant for turbo applications since they are from the factory boosted. The reason the exhaust manifold (headifold as most refer to it) has only a single exit rather than the traditional 4port design is for boosted applications. The intake manifolds are different because I was thinking of trying to retrofit a Type R intake manifold but then I realized it would probably negatively affect performance since this intake manifold was probably design to be efficient with the NA engine. Sure you could always run longer headers but the intake manifold is in the back (for fuel economy) and space is limited not to mention it's a pain in the ass to work on.

It's not all bad though. Our engines haven't had many recalls since 2016 when they first came out. Our fuel pumps work as intended, haven't heard of oil dilution for the 2.0s, our head gaskets seem to be better than the L15s since I hear stories about them consuming the gaskets as if they were a Subaru. Also the most important benefit we have over all other trims is that we are Port Fuel Injected where all other trims are Direct Injected. I think of it as a benefit but many will argue direct injection allows for better fuel temps and knock resistances so a DI System is more performance oriented.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with you wanting to improve your car. You bought what you could and are making it work as optimally as you can. You also have realistic expectations of your car now that you know what you know. The c2 platform is still one worth working on, but it is rather limited. It honestly sounds better than the L15s and you guys also get VTEC!

I guess people need to be more clear with their intent when they come to forums like this and act as nay-sayers. It isn't because they are trying to be mean, it's because there simply isn't enough potential right now to allow someone who may not have the money or knowledge to really work on this platform the way they think they can.
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ambitiousal

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The CVT must have some strange programming and safety mechanisms in place because it's always been laggy even after all the mods I've done. It doesn't have gears and I believe Honda put in some sort of artificial shift feeling like that of traditional gearboxes so you don't feel like you're driving a CVT.

I will say that KTuner made a night and day difference by simply allowing me to change the throttle response. I opted for the Improved Throttle Response II and now I don't have to slam my foot into the ground to have it actually register my input.

So the 2.slow has i-VTEC on the exhaust cam and from the factory it engaged at a disgustingly high 6500rpm for the CVT's and 6100rpm for manuals (our cvt redline is at 6800rpm for reference so that leaves 300rpm between i-vtec and redline which is a complete joke). The CVT climbs incredibly slow to the 6800rpm redline so i-vtec will 95% of the time never even have a chance to come on unless you're on KTuner (it's set to 5300rpm and redline at 7000rpm I believe on the basemap).

The reason I'm saying this is that there exists a strange pedal mash that shoots the rpms up higher and quicker than just holding your foot down on the gas. Next time you're on a stretch shift to 'S'. The engine rpms will be held higher than 'D' and you should feel more engine braking. Now when you try to reach WOT at redline with the CVT it'll climb pretty slowly. Instead of just pressing and holding it, I and a few others found that if you press it all the way down, let off for a split second, and repeat this process about 2-3times that it reaches those higher rpms quicker thus letting the i-vtec engagement happen earlier. I think Myx on the forums has a write up about it. I believe the logic is that the CVT tries to give a smooth delivery of power where if you do the pedal dance it'll feel like 3 tiny shifts as the ECU interprets each input as a request for more power.

I haven't had a chance to install the nitrous in but the plan is to spray with i-vtec crossover that way it's higher up in the rpm range and it'll feel like the good old fashioned VTEC people used to love.

Having it tuned and dyno'd is on the list of things to do once I get this all wired and setup. Unfortunately neither a dyno nor a tune are exactly cheap so I'm taking it slow since the ZEX kit set me back ~$1,000.
Totally true about the i-VTEC. Most people who don’t ever drive aggressively will most likely never experience the VTEC because of its engagement rpm. It’s way too high and close to the redline (unless you tune with KTuner).

And also pressing the pedal hard, releasing and repeating does get you there a little quicker.

Some people may get me for this but I have pedal commander installed in mine for 3 months now and honestly I like it so far. You feel a big difference in the throttle response and it makes the car just fun and feel quicker. That’s just me though. I know what it is and what it does (I did my research before buying)

My plan is to do the following:
CAI, Exhaust, Downpipe, KTuner
 

Civic_rob

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The only place I’ve seen that makes internal performance parts for the 2.0 n/a is supertech. Pistons and valve train.

https://www.supertechperformance.com/s128351-automotive
Holy crap they do! It's even called out by engine code. I did try to view in their web store and it didn't pop up with detailed information though. That would be really neat if I could find some rods to go along with all of that. At that point I'd be comfortable spraying considerably more since the internals would stand up better than stock. Any idea/information what they're rated for? Also curious if I can find some products and just have this engine stroked out slightly more than 2.0. A 2.4L NA Nitrous Motor sounds like everything I've ever wanted from a Honda.
 

Civic_rob

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Totally true about the i-VTEC. Most people who don’t ever drive aggressively will most likely never experience the VTEC because of its engagement rpm. It’s way too high and close to the redline (unless you tune with KTuner).

And also pressing the pedal hard, releasing and repeating does get you there a little quicker.

Some people may get me for this but I have pedal commander installed in mine for 3 months now and honestly I like it so far. You feel a big difference in the throttle response and it makes the car just fun and feel quicker. That’s just me though. I know what it is and what it does (I did my research before buying)

My plan is to do the following:
CAI, Exhaust, Downpipe, KTuner
I'd reverse that list in terms of order by which you purchase the mods. KTuner was the most impactful with performance especially up top. I raced another LX-P (At least I'm pretty sure because of how much I beat him by) in Mexico with less mods than I have currently and sent him to Gapplebees. It was a good visual/test to see if the parts I've put on do infact help with performance. It's still by no means fast but if you've driven a stock 2.slow CVT you know that from the factory it feels comically slow.

I recommend going catless downpipe unless you live in a state that does smog & involved inspections. The KTuner can disable the engine code throws so you don't need to worry about that. It'll change your exhaust note which will sound good with the stock exhaust as long as you have a resonator and muffler. I think it was good for something like ~15hp. With a KTuner, Exhaust, and Catless Downpipe you should be ~180hp/150tq depending on conditions. Here is dyno proof of that.

Also I took a data log from last night's brief antics (I was diagnosing a check engine light that somehow wasn't throwing any codes later to find out that it was just bitching because I was low on gas and went away after a fill up). On KTuner you can monitor the pedal command and see where the throttle is relative to the pedal position. I had a few instances where it was over 110% doing the pedal mash. This value should be between 0%-100%. 0% should be foot off the pedal and 100% should be to the floor. It happened multiple times so I know it wasn't some glitch from the KTuner. I didn't get a chance to compare it to the ~100% vs 110% data on the excel sheet but it seems to want to give it more beans when you do this. I like to back up my claims with factual information so I don't accidentally spread misinformation so that's why I bring this up.

This car has limited potential kinda like the base model RSX did. Gains are possible but everyone favored the K20A2 in the Type S over the base modal because of it's higher flowing head for example. The same is true for the K20C2. Now I'm not saying a 1,000hp+ engine is possible or even 400-500hp but 200hp should be no sweat. The biggest concern would be the CVT transmission, axles, and of course unbuilt internals like rods, valvetrain, and the pistons.

The i-vtec engagement from factory is a joke plain and simple. At that point I'm not even sure why Honda even added it at all since it's hardly useable for the manuals and not usable for the CVT's from factory. I hit i-vtec at 5300rpm quite frequently especially since I drive in 'S' mode. There's been hints that the i-vtec will be able to be manually moved in the rpm range by KTuner at some point but until that happens 5300rpm will have to do. Custom tuning would show where the optimal point for the i-vtec would be and my guess is that around 5000-5500 is the sweet spot depending on the high cam angle. Since KTuner used a stock K20C2 with a KTuner as the only mod, I'm not sure if 5300rpm is actually the best but I can say for certain it's certainly better than the 6500rpm that it was stock.

For the best use of horsepower & torque you want to have as much area under the dyno curve as possible. Sure you might make 200hp/180tq peak but that's not usable throughout the entire rev range. A lot of people don't understand sacrificing some horsepower & torque for a broad curve actually makes for a faster car. All they see is the biggest number and say they have that horsepower at all times which isn't the case. It's a dynamic number and changes based on like a billion things.
 

Civic_rob

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I can appreciate anyone that starts a thread/forum about this... I read and gather up the info the best I can, that's a nice build so far
If you're talking about my 2.slow, thank you! I apparently like choosing the path of most resistance when it comes to cars but for my fellow K20C2 slow bois and girls, it's fun to share what I've learned. Most the folks that drive the 2.0 aren't modifying them and the ones that are, aren't doing it to the extent I want to. I'm not saying just to throw money at it until it works though.

I think this engine, once a few more years go by, will be the budget swap for 300 NA hp with the right setup. I've seen plenty of L15 swaps into older cars since they take advantage of the turbo but 2.0 is tiny and 1.5L is less than a 2 liter of soda. Sure you are adding more displacement technically by way of a turbo but whenever you have a small motor there's an increased risk of issues. From what I've been researching, a lot of people are finding that the L15's head gaskets are utter garage no matter what they do to resolve it. One guy even built his block and had it sleeved and the head gasket still went.

I haven't heard as many stories about the K20C1 (Type R motor) so we should have the upper hand since ours is fairly close in terms of the block.

Once I have dyno numbers you can bet I'll be sharing those with everyone so they can see the results of what I've done. I'm prepared to be disappointed by the numbers but would like to be pleasantly surprised. With all that I've done, I'm hoping for a modest ~230hp and ~190tq on the spray and 190hp & 170tq without. The ultimate goal for me is 250hp & 210tq with the difference between faster cars made up with weight savings. That goal is ~2300lbs without me in it. The 2018 LX-P Coupe CVT (my model) is 2752lbs from factory and I already know that I'm well under that based on a weight measurement I did over a year ago with a full tank of gas, front carpet, and some other weight that I've since removed. I've also added several aero exterior bits and pieces so for it to still be under factory weight with all that is amazing.

Also when I go to change my rims out in favor of the Enkei RPF1's, I'll have saved nearly 50 pounds in unsprung weight. That will be a night and day difference once I actually get around to doing it. The F1R Rims I'm currently rocking are 18s and weigh ~26 pounds a rim. That is quite a lot for this car and shedding that 50lbs will have it accelerate and brake a hell of a lot quicker since I'll be going with 16s. I'll probably run a slightly wider tire than I have now (245 in front, 225 in rear currently) so that will add a little bit of weight. I might be able to offset the wider front tires with smaller rear tires but I also don't want to not have enough tire in the rear even if it's a FWD car. I've been testing some tire setups over about a year and 245s feel better than the 225s (for the front) and 225s feel less obstructive than the 235s (for the rear). The difference isn't drastic but can still be felt especially on the corners.

I have a whole thread about weight savings for these cars here and I took a lot of inspiration from this madman.

-Rob
 

tripodog

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I hope the aftermarket comes around. Seems like the have some on the r18 motors. I think the C2 will benefit with porting and cam timing/lift. When I had my intake off, the ports neck down a lot. And it i looks like the 4 Piston Racing guys take a lot out of the type r head, which is similar casting sans the direct injector and vtec variation.
 

Mlock757

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If you're talking about my 2.slow, thank you! I apparently like choosing the path of most resistance when it comes to cars but for my fellow K20C2 slow bois and girls, it's fun to share what I've learned. Most the folks that drive the 2.0 aren't modifying them and the ones that are, aren't doing it to the extent I want to. I'm not saying just to throw money at it until it works though.

I think this engine, once a few more years go by, will be the budget swap for 300 NA hp with the right setup. I've seen plenty of L15 swaps into older cars since they take advantage of the turbo but 2.0 is tiny and 1.5L is less than a 2 liter of soda. Sure you are adding more displacement technically by way of a turbo but whenever you have a small motor there's an increased risk of issues. From what I've been researching, a lot of people are finding that the L15's head gaskets are utter garage no matter what they do to resolve it. One guy even built his block and had it sleeved and the head gasket still went.

I haven't heard as many stories about the K20C1 (Type R motor) so we should have the upper hand since ours is fairly close in terms of the block.

Once I have dyno numbers you can bet I'll be sharing those with everyone so they can see the results of what I've done. I'm prepared to be disappointed by the numbers but would like to be pleasantly surprised. With all that I've done, I'm hoping for a modest ~230hp and ~190tq on the spray and 190hp & 170tq without. The ultimate goal for me is 250hp & 210tq with the difference between faster cars made up with weight savings. That goal is ~2300lbs without me in it. The 2018 LX-P Coupe CVT (my model) is 2752lbs from factory and I already know that I'm well under that based on a weight measurement I did over a year ago with a full tank of gas, front carpet, and some other weight that I've since removed. I've also added several aero exterior bits and pieces so for it to still be under factory weight with all that is amazing.

Also when I go to change my rims out in favor of the Enkei RPF1's, I'll have saved nearly 50 pounds in unsprung weight. That will be a night and day difference once I actually get around to doing it. The F1R Rims I'm currently rocking are 18s and weigh ~26 pounds a rim. That is quite a lot for this car and shedding that 50lbs will have it accelerate and brake a hell of a lot quicker since I'll be going with 16s. I'll probably run a slightly wider tire than I have now (245 in front, 225 in rear currently) so that will add a little bit of weight. I might be able to offset the wider front tires with smaller rear tires but I also don't want to not have enough tire in the rear even if it's a FWD car. I've been testing some tire setups over about a year and 245s feel better than the 225s (for the front) and 225s feel less obstructive than the 235s (for the rear). The difference isn't drastic but can still be felt especially on the corners.

I have a whole thread about weight savings for these cars here and I took a lot of inspiration from this madman.

-Rob
Man I'm loving the info.....right now I'm trying to tackle the body roll/handling.... something close to 200 hp I'd be more than satisfied... Good Luck on the Dyno keep us noobs informed🙏🏽
 

ambitiousal

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I hope the aftermarket comes around. Seems like the have some on the r18 motors. I think the C2 will benefit with porting and cam timing/lift. When I had my intake off, the ports neck down a lot. And it i looks like the 4 Piston Racing guys take a lot out of the type r head, which is similar casting sans the direct injector and vtec variation.
So I’m not sure how accurate this info (found in the link below) is but seems like the CTR and K20C2’s motors are almost identical. If some if the parts are the same I don’t know why they can’t be swapped for handling all that extra hp. Maybe looks similar but slightly different fit? 🤷‍♂️ Someone correct me.

https://tiremeetsroad.com/2021/03/1...the-civic-type-r-2-0l-turbo-engine-different/
 

tripodog

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So I’m not sure how accurate this info (found in the link below) is but seems like the CTR and K20C2’s motors are almost identical. If some if the parts are the same I don’t know why they can’t be swapped for handling all that extra hp. Maybe looks similar but slightly different fit? 🤷‍♂️ Someone correct me.

https://tiremeetsroad.com/2021/03/1...the-civic-type-r-2-0l-turbo-engine-different/

The best way to find the similarities is to cross reference part numbers to see what is the same. Some things are some things not.
 

tripodog

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Has any body adjusted the camshaft advance and gotten dyno results?
 

Civic_rob

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Has any body adjusted the camshaft advance and gotten dyno results?
KTuner has I would image as part of their tune. I'm not sure about those with fbo's though. Not too many people I know even have the K20C2 let alone a custom tune. I'll be getting one soon though so when I do I'll make a post about it.
 

tripodog

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The k tuner does adjust cam advance some. More intake advance and less advance on exh. Giving it more valve overlap.
 
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