Full bolt ons with no tune question

tinyman392

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so does that mean that the car just drives a bit better but doesn’t really gain more power.
It’s hard to tell with my Butt Dyno.
As a stock car, the car tries to hit it's torque targets, but sometimes can't since it has to pull timing for whatever reason. Typically related to either the intake temps being too high (intercooler bottleneck for the FK8) or the exhaust gasses not being evacuated quickly enough (exhaust side bottleneck).

From my experience an intercooler smooths out the midrange power of the FK8 and increases it slightly but doesn't really improve peak power (using a PRL intercooler). The overall gain was minor; although I do feel a slight power increase, it also smoothed out the boost kick I normally felt with the FK8 as well which makes it faster, but less playful. It definitely changed the dynamic of the car for me.

I haven't tested a cat-back exhaust, but most manufacturers claim a small gain in the midrange and a slight gain at peak.





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As a stock car, the car tries to hit it's torque targets, but sometimes can't since it has to pull timing for whatever reason. Typically related to either the intake temps being too high (intercooler bottleneck for the FK8) or the exhaust gasses not being evacuated quickly enough (exhaust side bottleneck).

From my experience an intercooler smooths out the midrange power of the FK8 and increases it slightly but doesn't really improve peak power (using a PRL intercooler). The overall gain was minor; although I do feel a slight power increase, it also smoothed out the boost kick I normally felt with the FK8 as well which makes it faster, but less playful. It definitely changed the dynamic of the car for me.

I haven't tested a cat-back exhaust, but most manufacturers claim a small gain in the midrange and a slight gain at peak.
This definitely makes Sense.
My PRL intercooler is in my garage, so I’ll put that on next and let you know my thoughts.
Looks like a downpipe might be next.
 

tinyman392

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This definitely makes Sense.
My PRL intercooler is in my garage, so I’ll put that on next and let you know my thoughts.
Looks like a downpipe might be next.
Go for it, I did notice something, but it was minor and felt more like a side-grade overall since it did boost performance (midrange power and heat soak) but also didn't improve anything at peak (though I don't care about this as much) and changed the personality of the car.

That downpipe may require a tune or you might start throwing CELs.
 

AdamD19DFK8

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so does that mean that the car just drives a bit better but doesn’t really gain more power.
It’s hard to tell with my Butt Dyno.
It may gain a couple hp, but it will make it's power more consistently, especially in the summer from what I noticed last year. Any noticable gain I just attributed to placebo, since the car actually had some sound to it.
 

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All I can do to contribute to this conversation is share my personal experience. Since I purchased my car I did not want to rush into modding, I wanted to enjoy the car as Stock and slowly do things to it. I got to know my car in it’s Stock form first, and then I started modifying. First performance mod was the PRL intercooler, this was a MAJOR improvement. I did not purchase the PRL Intercooler for horse power gains, I bought it for the health of my motor. The Type R is known for having overheating issues and though I am not tracking the car in the warm New Jersey Summers you could definitely feel the car a little sluggish. Those issues have been non existent since I’ve installed the new upgraded PRL Intercooler. Did I also mention that it definitely provided better throttle response? The other thing I would like to contribute is downpipe. I personally did a ton of research before I bought my downpipe. I decided to go with RV6 because out of all the popular downpipe at the time of my purchase, no one complained about throwing a CEL. I’m happy to say that I’ve been running the RV6 ceramic coated catless downpipe for a year with zero issues, not a single CEL. The downpipe was also the biggest difference in performance that I have felt besides the intercooler. If there is any two mods I’d recommend it’s those two. Also IMHO if you do intercooler and downpipe and maybe throw in the PRL HVI you don’t even need to upgrade the exhaust. You will get the whoosh everyone wants and enough engine noise and a nice rumble from the exhaust that isnt obnoxiously loud. Since then I have done every single performance bolt on, most aren’t needed but they have all contributed the the joy I have for my car.
 

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This is a great question and one I would love to expand on. @AdamD19DFK8 did a good job touching on it.

Our FK8 and nearly every modern ECU now and days operate of off torque tables or targets. So for x amount of various conditions, the ECU will target y amount of torque. So a rough example of a lookup table would be like so.

(w) intake air temp +(x) throttle position + (y) manifold pressure = (z) Injector duty cycle. The goal would be that from the various years of Honda research that the (z) output would equal "blank" amount of torque. aka our torque target.

Now this example is very basic and not a representation of the Bosch ECU directly but to show you that the ECU logic is really just a bunch of lookup tables. The things with new cars is we have more sensors, and more tables, and more outputs that give us much better results and more efficient and powerful cars. Think old cars only had a few dozen maps and new cars can have hundreds.

Now going back to your question when we create a new part and we say it can be installed without a tune that is true, this is because the ECU logic is smart and continues to look at it its table to hit its target. The ECU has no idea that you physically swapped a new exhaust, bigger turbo, or new intake. It just knows what the sensors see.

So back to the example. In in my previous equation (y) was lets say 10 and it gave a (Z) of 20 and that meant torque output of 200, and then we put on a big airflow mod that could increase my (y) from 10 to 15, well the ECU doesn't really care, it just knows it wants to hit the 200 torque target and will still aim for that. but since we increased (y) by 5 I can now hit my 200 torque target with (z) only being lets say like 18.So I won't make much more power, I just make the same power more efficiently. So without the numbers think of the computer saying I want 200 torque and I need this much fuel and air to do it, but I put a big intake on so now I can get that much torque with maybe less fuel because I am getting that air I need more efficiently. So I will just not work as hard to get the 200 target I want. All I know is I want to hit 200 because that is what I am programmed to do.

With me so far? If not it's okay can be confusing at first.

Generally speaking, it's because of this increased efficiency we see power gains when we add parts to a stock car, So like Adam said in his exhaust example, its not so much the exhaust that added power, its the removal of a stock restrictive exhaust to a larger free-flowing exhaust that allows me to clear the cylinders our more effectively and therefore run more timing and therefore make more power. Hence my exhaust made me power.

We advertise and market with no tune bolt-on gains because it's the easiest concept for most to grasp and understand. As well as being cheaper because most don't want to spend $200 to tune every time they add something to the car. But my always preferred answer is you tune for every single part on the car, why? because again the ECU does not know you want more boost or timing from the big part you put on, you need to adjust that lookup table to say, "hey look here bitch, I want you to make 500 torque, make it happen I gave you aftermarket parts

Make sense?
 
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@[email protected] great explanation!!!

I made this thread looking for that exact explanation by Vincent and @AdamD19DFK8. I’m not looking for crazy HP gains. With the stock setup the front wheels are spinning like crazy in the cold MN temps.

I recent went all in on my build. It was suppose to be a 5 year project but my girlfriend surprised the hell out of on my 35th birthday.

My first mod was a 27WON rear MM. This help put the power to the ground and reduce the wheel hop. Also had added Acuity shifter bushing.

Fall of 2019. I added a PRL HVI. Noticed minor gain. Only thing to brag about I guess would be the sound.

Winter/Spring 2020: PRL Intercooler/charge pipe. The turbo spooled a bit faster. Hard to tell if I would get any heat soak issues. I’ve done several hard pulls in a row (55degree temp) boost was consist 20-21.

Today: A RV6 catted down pipe and a 27WON exhaust went on the car. All I can say is wow!!! The turbo screamed and spooled up super fast! Felt like a little kid in the candy store.

Hondata will be coming in the future.

Overall: I think the biggest impact has been the intercooler/charge pipe with the down pipe. The car is screaming and it’s not necessary more powerful but it reaches peak faster. Which makes you think you added a ton of power. Today is the first time I’ve seen the car hit 22psi over and over with no issues.
 
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mpir413

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Who has heard that most bolt on pieces can’t produce A significant gain without a tune and that the original programming stops the aftermarket parts from actually making much of a difference.
I’ll search to see if I can find the actual wording.
You are correct search “TORQUE MANAGEMENT”
PFI SPEED has a video on YouTube outlining this subject. Dyno runs were completed before and after mods.
Gains were initially provided by mods but subsequent pulls revealed power being pulled to some extent. However, still Not completely sure if heat soak had any blame in the issue.
 
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CIVICUK

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This is a great question and one I would love to expand on. @AdamD19DFK8 did a good job touching on it.

Our FK8 and nearly every modern ECU now and days operate of off torque tables or targets. So for x amount of various conditions, the ECU will target y amount of torque. So a rough example of a lookup table would be like so.

(w) intake air temp +(x) throttle position + (y) manifold pressure = (z) Injector duty cycle. The goal would be that from the various years of Honda research that the (z) output would equal "blank" amount of torque. aka our torque target.

Now this example is very basic and not a representation of the Bosch ECU directly but to show you that the ECU logic is really just a bunch of lookup tables. The things with new cars is we have more sensors, and more tables, and more outputs that give us much better results and more efficient and powerful cars. Think old cars only had a few dozen maps and new cars can have hundreds.

Now going back to your question when we create a new part and we say it can be installed without a tune that is true, this is because the ECU logic is smart and continues to look at it its table to hit its target. The ECU has no idea that you physically swapped a new exhaust, bigger turbo, or new intake. It just knows what the sensors see.

So back to the example. In in my previous equation (y) was lets say 10 and it gave a (Z) of 20 and that meant torque output of 200, and then we put on a big airflow mod that could increase my (y) from 10 to 15, well the ECU doesn't really care, it just knows it wants to hit the 200 torque target and will still aim for that. but since we increased (y) by 5 I can now hit my 200 torque target with (z) only being lets say like 18.So I won't make much more power, I just make the same power more efficiently. So without the numbers think of the computer saying I want 200 torque and I need this much fuel and air to do it, but I put a big intake on so now I can get that much torque with maybe less fuel because I am getting that air I need more efficiently. So I will just not work as hard to get the 200 target I want. All I know is I want to hit 200 because that is what I am programmed to do.

With me so far? If not it's okay can be confusing at first.

Generally speaking, it's because of this increased efficiency we see power gains when we add parts to a stock car, So like Adam said in his exhaust example, its not so much the exhaust that added power, its the removal of a stock restrictive exhaust to a larger free-flowing exhaust that allows me to clear the cylinders our more effectively and therefore run more timing and therefore make more power. Hence my exhaust made me power.

We advertise and market with no tune bolt-on gains because it's the easiest concept for most to grasp and understand. As well as being cheaper because most don't want to spend $200 to tune every time they add something to the car. But my always preferred answer is you tune for every single part on the car, why? because again the ECU does not know you want more boost or timing from the big part you put on, you need to adjust that lookup table to say, "hey look here bitch, I want you to make 500 torque, make it happen I gave you aftermarket parts

Make sense?
wow i stumbled across this thread and Vincent your explanation of how these ecu's work really helped me understand my car a lot more! like for instance i have been dealing with my tuner going through a 'remote tune' process as i have just upgraded the exhaust system so it is full free flow and i have always wondered how the ecu knows that i have added a 'bigger intake' for example but your explanation of it has sort of helped me understand it a bit better, having said that, i feel that all my tuner has achieved is great fueling and AFR keeping more towards target but i do not feel where the power has been created? or is this how our ecu's work? also you mention how if the ecu is set to target 200 torque and the adjustments are made in x y z to achieve this but how does my tuner know what needs to be adjusted via looking at my data logs? he first mentioned that my knock control was really high at low end power so what tables are adjusted to bring the knock down? also i assume the torque target is what psi it is trying to target at which rpm is that correct? from looking at 3D graph i am still targeting the same boost just not at 3500rpm but 5000 rpm so by him extending this is this where more ignition and timing needs to be added which helps creating more power a.k.a hit target more efficiently? sorry for all the questions i just feel you could explain these better for a newbie like myself :D
 

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only thing that might make your car run iffy would be if you had an intake that had an incorrect diameter causing it to not read correct.
a downpipe may cause a CEL even if catted which you wouldn't be able to turn off but thats really about it.

To get the most benefit from your bolt ons, a tuning unit would be needed but you can run them with no tune without any ill effects aside from your wallet being a little lighter.
I have Full bolt on with mine for 4months, no tuner on it.. there is no CEL no problem whatsoever.

I have aFevcatted dp & fp, prl HVI, prl TIP, hks fmic, full catback exhaust.
Car run smooth, but it has no gain in horsepower

Then i put hondata after 4months.. and week after that i custom tune it and dyno.
I asked the tuner to dyno my car when it was stock, and then with FULL bolt on, and then with hondata tune, and with custom tune so i know exactly how much gain each stage.

Result shows that, there is zero gain on horsepower between a stock type r and full bolt on type r. FBO does shift entire power curve up on every rpm but it resides on exact same peak horsepower as stock. However there are 25 torque gain.

Then i check fbo with Hondata, the car gain 40whps, another 55 torque.
So it is around 80torque gain from stock to fbo hondata base map. It is pretty insane torque gain..

Custom tune is all depends how much you want to push the car. I go conservative and got another 20whps and 10 torque from it. However, my car runs more gas efficient after tune.
 
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@[email protected] great explanation!!!

I made this thread looking for that exact explanation by Vincent and @AdamD19DFK8. I’m not looking for crazy HP gains. With the stock setup the front wheels are spinning like crazy in the cold MN temps.

I recent went all in on my build. It was suppose to be a 5 year project but my girlfriend surprised the hell out of on my 35th birthday.

My first mod was a 27WON rear MM. This help put the power to the ground and reduce the wheel hop. Also had added Acuity shifter bushing.

Fall of 2019. I added a PRL HVI. Noticed minor gain. Only thing to brag about I guess would be the sound.

Winter/Spring 2020: PRL Intercooler/charge pipe. The turbo spooled a bit faster. Hard to tell if I would get any heat soak issues. I’ve done several hard pulls in a row (55degree temp) boost was consist 20-21.

Today: A RV6 catted down pipe and a 27WON exhaust went on the car. All I can say is wow!!! The turbo screamed and spooled up super fast! Felt like a little kid in the candy store.

Hondata will be coming in the future.

Overall: I think the biggest impact has been the intercooler/charge pipe with the down pipe. The car is screaming and it’s not necessary more powerful but it reaches peak faster. Which makes you think you added a ton of power. Today is the first time I’ve seen the car hit 22psi over and over with no issues.
Awesome! No problems with the clutch so far?
 

AdamD19DFK8

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wow i stumbled across this thread and Vincent your explanation of how these ecu's work really helped me understand my car a lot more! like for instance i have been dealing with my tuner going through a 'remote tune' process as i have just upgraded the exhaust system so it is full free flow and i have always wondered how the ecu knows that i have added a 'bigger intake' for example but your explanation of it has sort of helped me understand it a bit better, having said that, i feel that all my tuner has achieved is great fueling and AFR keeping more towards target but i do not feel where the power has been created? or is this how our ecu's work? also you mention how if the ecu is set to target 200 torque and the adjustments are made in x y z to achieve this but how does my tuner know what needs to be adjusted via looking at my data logs? he first mentioned that my knock control was really high at low end power so what tables are adjusted to bring the knock down? also i assume the torque target is what psi it is trying to target at which rpm is that correct? from looking at 3D graph i am still targeting the same boost just not at 3500rpm but 5000 rpm so by him extending this is this where more ignition and timing needs to be added which helps creating more power a.k.a hit target more efficiently? sorry for all the questions i just feel you could explain these better for a newbie like myself :D
Knock control helps the car adjust to the quality of fuel

https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/index.html?knock_control_tables.htm

Knock level isn't useful for tuning according to the guy who posts for hondata


"Ignore the knock level. It does not show anything useful for tuning or diagnosis.

The most important things to look at in a datalog is the fuel pump, knock retard and intake temperatures."

The ECU goes by aircharge not boost to meet it's torque targets. Air charge need is impacted by weather/temp and altitude/atmosphere. It will calculate how much boost is needed to meet it's air charge criteria. You could be getting 24psi or 23psi at certain times but for both of those the aircharge value should be the same.

If you are getting knock retard you would pinpoint which areas in the ignition table they are occurring by having your calibration loaded on screen and the data log running. Play through the datalog and on the calibration table (for example- ignition vtec in cam+) it will highlight which area of the table it's currently in from the data log. You would then reduce the ignition advance where KR is occurring. Also it's a good idea to monitor your AFR and fuel pump duty in these areas. I'm not sure if you're using hondata or k-tuner, but I know that with hondata the AFR tends to be pretty lean down low, say an AFR over 13-1 at 20 psi. In addition to retarding the ignition, you could enrich the afr slightly.

If KR is happening above 5kRPM you can reduce the knock sensitivity some. With hondata a higher value is less sensitive, plus lower the retard step a little to aid with power being cut too abruptly. Base retard step is 2.25 with the decrease knock sensitivity modification. To lower the step you would actually add a positive number to it. The bosche ECU does ignition values by .75, so you could add .75 to that.

Though you said you're custom tuned and most tuners lock their calibrations so it would be a little harder to pinpoint what is happening with the tune looking at a data log.
 

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Knock control helps the car adjust to the quality of fuel

https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/index.html?knock_control_tables.htm

Knock level isn't useful for tuning according to the guy who posts for hondata


"Ignore the knock level. It does not show anything useful for tuning or diagnosis.

The most important things to look at in a datalog is the fuel pump, knock retard and intake temperatures."

The ECU goes by aircharge not boost to meet it's torque targets. Air charge need is impacted by weather/temp and altitude/atmosphere. It will calculate how much boost is needed to meet it's air charge criteria. You could be getting 24psi or 23psi at certain times but for both of those the aircharge value should be the same.

If you are getting knock retard you would pinpoint which areas in the ignition table they are occurring by having your calibration loaded on screen and the data log running. Play through the datalog and on the calibration table (for example- ignition vtec in cam+) it will highlight which area of the table it's currently in from the data log. You would then reduce the ignition advance where KR is occurring. Also it's a good idea to monitor your AFR and fuel pump duty in these areas. I'm not sure if you're using hondata or k-tuner, but I know that with hondata the AFR tends to be pretty lean down low, say an AFR over 13-1 at 20 psi. In addition to retarding the ignition, you could enrich the afr slightly.

If KR is happening above 5kRPM you can reduce the knock sensitivity some. With hondata a higher value is less sensitive, plus lower the retard step a little to aid with power being cut too abruptly. Base retard step is 2.25 with the decrease knock sensitivity modification. To lower the step you would actually add a positive number to it. The bosche ECU does ignition values by .75, so you could add .75 to that.

Though you said you're custom tuned and most tuners lock their calibrations so it would be a little harder to pinpoint what is happening with the tune looking at a data log.
thanks for clearing a few of my questions up but sorry i forgot to mention i am running a 1.5 fk7 sport hatch with ktuner v1.2 so i will try and use your explanations best i can but this is my first ever tuning platform experience so i am just trying to get my head around the ktuner interface and what values to monitor etc, yes i was custom tuned but i was not too confident in all the ignition timing and really high counts and retard so i decided to start with a base map and firstly scale in my maf to target afr command, then use the fuel tables to keep afr on target, next i will be ' again' looking into the knock retard areas but still trying to get my head around how to calculate final ignition value and work out whether its a positive or negative input i need to put in. hondata seems to have a lot of explanations on their platform and i cant help but think i should of started with that first before jumping into ktuner. any advise on this platform would be greatly appreciated as i cant seem to get enough feedback right now! so eager to learn im really putting in the time to get my head around it :D
 

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