FlashPro - Artificial Knock Elimination

dem2757

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Not meaning to be impolite or anything, but people / tuners have been adding all the required timing for ages ... are you sure you know what you are talking about?
knock control on stock and tuned logic completely kills any advance timing to prevent knock on poor quality fuel per the baked in tuning logic on a civic.

Hondata is saying you can command all you want but the ecu without this programming will ignore it.

Hence now the new programming logic for removing artificial knock limit. Now your commanded timing can be used without an ecu intervention.
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Where are the gains before 5200 rpm coming from? This means that the lower power line was measured with with already high knock control before the artificial rise. Multiple dyno plots showing the k.control/rpm value will help further undertanding this.
Great observation. There are two possible reasons. When you install a Hondata reflash, the knock control is reset to 54% . The artificial knock control raises the ECU stored knock control percentage. That takes driving time for the ECU to "unlearn". Reflashing the ECU immediately restore the knock control to its lowest value.
 
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knock control on stock and tuned logic completely kills any advance timing to prevent knock on poor quality fuel per the baked in tuning logic on a civic.

Hondata is saying you can command all you want but the ecu without this programming will ignore it.

Hence now the new programming logic for removing artificial knock limit. Now your commanded timing can be used without an ecu intervention.

You are completely correct.
 

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Great observation. There are two possible reasons. When you install a Hondata reflash, the knock control is reset to 54% which usually gives more timing overall. The second reason could be cool down. We will examine the datalogs to determine which.
Great thanks. I bet is knock control being at the minimum in one line and the pink line was done with higher k.control hence lower timing and power overall. This is why I mention multiple dyno plots and data will benefit the understanding. Obviously with the artificial rise removed better consistency is expected.
 
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procivic

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Not meaning to be impolite or anything, but people / tuners have been adding all the required timing for ages ... are you sure you know what you are talking about?
The 10th Gen base 1.5T Civic is different. It doesn't behavior the same as you would think when tuning it. The ECU will override extra timing that you put in.

In general, all the 10th Civics use a much more complicated (dynamic) ignition timing strategy than previous gens.
 


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The 10th Gen base 1.5T Civic is different. It doesn't behavior the same as you would think when tuning it. The ECU will override extra timing that you put in.

In general, all the 10th Civics use a much more complicated (dynamic) ignition timing strategy than previous gens.
This so totally not true. I own a base EU model ... Custom tunes are running ignition to their liking. Sure the default base ECU logic will remove a couple extra degrees past 5300rpm, but you just have to add them on top of that. In fact , even with the artificial rise removed, the ECU may pull additional timing even with Knock Control as low as 0.5 . Do you disagree?
 
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procivic

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Aren't you now talking about something different? In the first post you said it adds an additional 18+ hp. Referring to enabling the artificial knock removal on a Hondata base map. To refresh your memory here's the link:

https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/flashpro-artificial-knock-elimination.60451/

Are you now saying the 18+ hp gain is actually from custom tuning / additional timing? Not seeing any clarity in your comments.
Hondata basically answered this before I got to it, but just to clarify a bit more:

The basemaps provided by Hondata for the non-Si Civics have ignition timing changes that are designed to net extra power. However, up until now those changes have not really done anything because the ECU overrides them.

So, it does add an additional 18 hp (at full boost), as stated on Hondata's website.
 
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This so totally not true. I own a base EU model ... Custom tunes are running ignition to their liking. Sure the default base ECU logic will remove a couple extra degrees past 5300rpm, but you just have to add them on top of that. In fact , even with the artificial rise removed, the ECU may pull additional timing even with Knock Control as low as 0.5 . Do you disagree?
As far as I've seen, this is not true, at least with USA ECUs. The ECU will keep increasing knock control and your ignition increase will not stick around for long. @Hondata has done much more testing on this than we have, so they hopefully should be able to confirm.
 

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The ECU will keep increasing knock control and your ignition increase will not stick around for long
This is not the same thing that you mentioned before, sounded like the ecu was just ignoring the tuning, it just get retarded by k.control and you can tune for it modifiying the correct tables but obviously the tune will be more agressive, it's better and more consistent have the rise disabled and tune accordingly.
 

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I own a base EU model
Hondata's hatch is built at Swindon, probably where yours was built. We see the same ignition logic in all base Civics worldwide.

Email your calibrations and datalog to [email protected] and we will take a look.
 


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sounded like the ecu was just ignoring the tuning, it just get retarded by k.control and you can tune for it modifiying the correct tables.
This has not been our experience. No amount of ignition timing alteration would overcome the artificial knock control. Thus the reason for this software update.
 

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Hondata basically answered this before I got to it, but just to clarify a bit more:

The basemaps provided by Hondata for the non-Si Civics have ignition timing changes that are designed to net extra power. However, up until now those changes have not really done anything because the ECU overrides them.

So, it does add an additional 18 hp (at full boost), as stated on Hondata's website.
I thought that up to now, @Hondata base maps (like the +6 / +9) only had boost target changes (possible WOT AFR as well) but no changes in ignition tables.
 

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This has not been our experience. No amount of ignition timing alteration would overcome the artificial knock control. Thus the reason for this software update.
But then there are 2 separate things, the artificial k.control rise past 5200rpm and the ignition timing tables getting ignored past 5200rpm???
 

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This has not been our experience. No amount of ignition timing alteration would overcome the artificial knock control. Thus the reason for this software update.
So to be clear, you're saying that the ignition timing changes Derek Robinson and other tuners have done in the past to compensate for the artificial rise did nothing?
 

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So to be clear, you're saying that the ignition timing changes Derek Robinson and other tuners have done in the past to compensate for the artificial rise did nothing?
That's how I'm reading it. I won't lie, I'm confused at this point. All I know is I'll ask Derek to disable the knock control rise when we get back to my custom tuning.
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