FK7 Time Attack/Daily Driver and NEW Civic X Products

[st4xor]

I can understand the boost of excitement you got from those times, congrats!

Even with the reverse stagger, I watched the video for even a hit of counter steer in your hands, and I don't think I saw any at all. Granted, there are only so many different types of turns at Pikes Peak. But your hands looks a lot like what I feel when I'm out there--which is just taking a set and then managing understeer by being patient with throttle.

So I would imagine there is a ton of time to be gained once you start getting the back end playful (I know brakes & suspension are on deck)--so back to point #1: you've got to be feeling really good in that competitive time range when there is still so much handling left to exploit!

The 8th/9th gen bois on FB are all about the reverse stagger, but I think you're the first 10th gen-er I've seen running a reverse stagger. I would imagine that will eventually become the norm as folks (like yourself) develop the platform further.

Glad to hear that the power train caused far fewer issues this time out--what a relief. Looking forward to you guys getting the brakes on and getting the suspension sorted. I know redshift only has a single-adjustable right now, but so they have the best suspension knowledge of the platform so far?

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[Austin@Wunderladen Racing]

I can understand the boost of excitement you got from those times, congrats!

Even with the reverse stagger, I watched the video for even a hit of counter steer in your hands, and I don't think I saw any at all. Granted, there are only so many different types of turns at Pikes Peak. But your hands looks a lot like what I feel when I'm out there--which is just taking a set and then managing understeer by being patient with throttle.

So I would imagine there is a ton of time to be gained once you start getting the back end playful (I know brakes & suspension are on deck)--so back to point #1: you've got to be feeling really good in that competitive time range when there is still so much handling left to exploit!

The 8th/9th gen bois on FB are all about the reverse stagger, but I think you're the first 10th gen-er I've seen running a reverse stagger. I would imagine that will eventually become the norm as folks (like yourself) develop the platform further.

Glad to hear that the power train caused far fewer issues thos.time our--what a relief. Looking forward to you guys getting the brakes on and getting the suspension sorted. I know redshift only has a single-adjustable right now, but so they have the best suspension knowledge of the platform so far?

Thanks! I really am enjoying developing the car and feeling it improve each time.

I chose to stick with the reverse stagger for a couple reasons. It is a bit cheaper to buy the narrower rear tires, but also a 10.5" wheel would not fit in the rear and the 255 RT660 is really at home on that width. A 10" might fit and the 255 RT660 would still work very well on it but I don't see a significant reason to add tire to the rear of the car right now.

Ideally I want to warm the front and rear tires up equally and since the fronts have to handle steering and putting power down they are going have more heat put in them than the rears and the wider the tire is the more it has to work to get up to temp, so going wider in the rear can make it harder to get them up to temp in a timely manner. I've seen guys do great stuff on square tire setups with FWD cars too but I tend to see considerably more guys going the reverse stagger route.

You're right in your observations about the car, at Pikes Peak I spent most of my time (in the dry) managing understeer but I also don't necessarily believe the rear end needs to be playful to go fast in a FWD car, at least that's how I feel right now as none of my fastest laps have had any drama in them. There were a couple times where I could get the rear end to step out on the second to last turn (the right hander after going over the wide curb) but whenever I did that it never felt faster, and the times concurred.

That video was also in the dry, I spun twice on the infield portion of the track Saturday morning when it was wet, I'll have to see if I can dig that footage up haha. I'll also say that at other tracks, like Gingerman, the car is less understeery and generally feels decently neutral. I've had the rear end come around a few times on me there and it's almost always predictable which is nice but sometimes I find myself trail braking a bit more than I mean to. I actually spun it coming out of 5 at Midwest Fest, would've made for a funny video but my Gopro overheated.

I'm not entirely unhappy with how the car handles right now. I think I'm in the right ballpark with spring rates (10/14) but the dampers show their weakness when the car has to manage imperfect surfaces, which every track has and that absolutely costs time. I do have plans to reduce the understeering nature of the car this winter and it'll almost all be done at the front end. Looking to increase grip in the front, and not reduce grip in the rear to get it where I want it. At the moment the plan is to see how much caster we can get in the car, ideally I'd like to be somewhere around the 8-9° area but seeing as I'm only at 4-5° now that may be tad optimistic. I think that coupled with a sizable roll center correction will really wake the front end up!

I've seen a lot of guys running the Redshift stuff with good things to say. I have a friend who does similar work as them (custom valving BCs) and has had similarly great success so if I decide to stick with the BCs I'll likely send them to him. It will come down to budget whether I do that or move to a 2 way like the Silver's. Setting up damper valving doesn't require super intimate knowledge of the specific platform as long as spring rates are good, motion ratios are known, and corner weights can be estimated then the damper can be valved pretty accurately.

 

[AlphaDigital]

It's rare that surprises on a race weekend have a good undertone, but that's what this weekend was, a pleasant surprise. I went into this past weekend with the mindset of it being similar to other events with this car, nowhere near competitive because it's way down on power, 5-600lbs heavier than most front runners, mediocre-at-best brakes, and dampers that are way undervalved for the springs.

Before going out on Friday I told myself if I could get under 1:08 I'd be content. I don't know why I settled on that number but after a ton of sloppy driving I was in the 1:05s right off the bat! The first day was hot overall, and despite the track getting hotter and hotter I was able to drop to a 1:05.1 on the second session and a 1:04.7 on the third session, leaving me in a close 4th place in class (out of 15)!

Saturday was cold and wet, basically living inside a cloud the entire day. I went out in the morning to get some seat time but the track was damp the entire day. After that first session I realized I had run out of rear brake pads. Luckily there was a parts delivery system for parts from Advance Auto and was able to get some generic ceramic pads to hold me over, but was a bit too late so I missed the second and third sessions for the day.

Sunday morning was it. Woke up, checked brake pads one more time, checked tire pressures, and brushed up on mental driving notes. Temps were pretty cool, in the low 50s and it was overcast, but the track was dry which was what mattered most. Went out, and tried to string together as good of a lap as I could as many times as possible. I didn't do a single cooldown lap until the end when the checker flag came down ending the session. My Aim Solo wasn't working great this weekend as I forgot to download the track so I had no idea what I'd done. After getting off track I was able to see I had cut an entire second and got down to a 1:03.7, putting me in third place!

And this is where the sad news arrives. Last week I had to buy tires and decided that since the car isn't in a competitive state I would get Kumho V730 tires since they were significantly cheaper and last a LOT longer than the class required Falken RT660. So because of that I was automatically disqualified from the start. But I'm not sad, the competition was stiff, the comradery amongst drivers was strong as ever, and I was able to prove that I'm not as bad of a driver as I often tell myself I am.

Overall I'm pleased with the results we've been able to get with this car despite its relatively simple setup and over the winter we'll get a lot of these issues addressed and go into next season with an even better car!

More photos and videos to come!

Saw you on the live stream. Good work!

What is your feedback on the V730s compared to the RT660s?

 

[Austin@Wunderladen Racing]

Saw you on the live stream. Good work!

What is your feedback on the V730s compared to the RT660s?

Thanks! They don't normally cover time attack super thoroughly so that's awesome to hear

As far as handling and grip goes, they feel very similar in peak grip (granted I've never driven PPIR on 660s so it's not an A-B comparison, but hoping to get one more test day in at Gingerman this year), the steering may feel just a tad less precise but the life on them is significantly longer than the 660 and they were a few hundred bucks cheaper too. I'll be back on the 660 again next year since the class requires it but I'll be doing all my test days from here on out on the 730s. I think they're the absolute best bang for your buck as far as 200tw tires go and I'm happy I grabbed a set.

 

[AlphaDigital]

Thanks! They don't normally cover time attack super thoroughly so that's awesome to hear

As far as handling and grip goes, they feel very similar in peak grip (granted I've never driven PPIR on 660s so it's not an A-B comparison, but hoping to get one more test day in at Gingerman this year), the steering may feel just a tad less precise but the life on them is significantly longer than the 660 and they were a few hundred bucks cheaper too. I'll be back on the 660 again next year since the class requires it but I'll be doing all my test days from here on out on the 730s. I think they're the absolute best bang for your buck as far as 200tw tires go and I'm happy I grabbed a set.

Ive got a fresh set sitting in my garage for once my 660s are toast. I probably have a few events left on them and theyve been nothing short of awesome.

Potentially hitting up Midwest Fest next year, thinking of registering for GLTA Street but well see!

 

[Austin@Wunderladen Racing]

Ive got a fresh set sitting in my garage for once my 660s are toast. I probably have a few events left on them and theyve been nothing short of awesome.

Potentially hitting up Midwest Fest next year, thinking of registering for GLTA Street but well see!

I enjoyed the 660 as well, I'm just a bit annoyed at how much more expensive they've gotten in the past year and how despite it being required by the class, we receive no incentives for using them so we're basically just pigeon holed into using them. But they're not a bad tire by any means.

You should definitely come out! Midwest Fest is a hard event to get into nowadays, I only am able to get in because I buy a gold pass (multi event pre purchase), the non gold pass spots sell out in seconds. The Autobahn event is a good one too though, and it's a fun track, but if you're only going to go to one event I'd suggest Track Day Picnic. It's at Blackhawk Farms and probably the closest event for you. It's a super laid back event and everyone is just there to have a good time since it's a non points event and every year there's a large potluck, it's also one of my favorite tracks haha. Would be great to see more guys enter 10th gens at Gridlife events!

 

[AlphaDigital]

I enjoyed the 660 as well, I'm just a bit annoyed at how much more expensive they've gotten in the past year and how despite it being required by the class, we receive no incentives for using them so we're basically just pigeon holed into using them. But they're not a bad tire by any means.

You should definitely come out! Midwest Fest is a hard event to get into nowadays, I only am able to get in because I buy a gold pass (multi event pre purchase), the non gold pass spots sell out in seconds. The Autobahn event is a good one too though, and it's a fun track, but if you're only going to go to one event I'd suggest Track Day Picnic. It's at Blackhawk Farms and probably the closest event for you. It's a super laid back event and everyone is just there to have a good time since it's a non points event and ever year there's a large potluck, it's also one of my favorite tracks haha. Would be great to see more guys enter 10th gens at Gridlife events!

thats good to know. If I dont get in, its not the end of the world. Track Day Picnic has been on my list of events to attend as well. BHF is a great track, Ill be going back next year for sure. If I dont do Midwest, Ill try to get into Autobahn.

ClubTR should definitely get some sort of pricing incentive for its competitors to use for RT660s because of that rule though. It sucks, everything has gotten significantly more expensive. used to be that you could get RT660s in a 265 size for a little over $900. That was a great deal.

 

[Austin@Wunderladen Racing]

thats good to know. If I dont get in, its not the end of the world. Track Day Picnic has been on my list of events to attend as well. BHF is a great track, Ill be going back next year for sure. If I dont do Midwest, Ill try to get into Autobahn.

ClubTR should definitely get some sort of pricing incentive for its competitors to use for RT660s because of that rule though. It sucks, everything has gotten significantly more expensive. used to be that you could get RT660s in a 265 size for a little over $900. That was a great deal.

Awesome, I'll look forward to meeting you in person!

And yes I agree haha, now a pair of 255 and a pair of 235 are almost $1100, they used to be around $800ish. And for tires that don't last an entire season of racing that's a significant price hike. Somehow the 730s seem to remain unaffected in price and I'm keeping my fingers crossed it stays that way.

 

[ApexEight]

Austin, do you experience the rear end dancing around under hard braking? It's an issue for Type Rs. Wonder if the caliper bushings may help that.

 

[AlphaDigital]

Austin, do you experience the rear end dancing around under hard braking? It's an issue for Type Rs. Wonder if the caliper bushings may help that.

I feel like any car that experiences significant weight shift under hard braking will have this issue. I admittedly have a lot of work to do on my braking technique but hopefully as I progress this issue gets minimized. I would also imagine a stiffer suspension especially in the front would help.

 

[Austin@Wunderladen Racing]

Austin, do you experience the rear end dancing around under hard braking? It's an issue for Type Rs. Wonder if the caliper bushings may help that.

I do not. Most of the time when the rear end steps out on me it's because I was trail braking too much. The caliper bushings will help keep rear pad wear more even, but won't change brake bias or brake torque in the rear.

If you're experiencing the rear end move around under braking to the point the car feels unpredictable going into a corner it could be the car has too much rear brake bias (could be pad compound is too aggressive), or the suspension needs more refinement; spring rates could be too low or dampers may not have enough low speed compression. Some amount of movement is normal to feel, the human body senses deceleration by feeling the vehicle pitch forward under braking, but if doesn't feel controllable that is another story.

Don't take what I'm about to say as pointed at you or anyone in particular, because I have no idea who you are or your experience level, this is just more of a blurb about driving and things I see/hear at the track. Braking technique is certainly a large variable and all cars will respond differently under a microscope. I would say if you find yourself engaging ABS regularly on track then you may be braking too late and too aggressively. One of the worst lies I hear told at the track is the later your brake, the faster you'll go. There are some corners where late braking is advantageous, and it certainly carries weight in wheel to wheel racing, but it's a bad rule of thumb to apply to all corners in a time trial. Ideally you only want to brake as much as you need to in order to maximize your speed through a given corner. If you're on the brakes earlier (but not too early) and input brake force more steadily over a longer period it will result in higher lateral grip because the chassis isn't becoming unsettled going into a corner by nose diving before turning. While the front tires do most of the braking grip, the rear tires need to be planted well before the turning is started otherwise the rear end won't have enough lateral grip to keep up.

Do you mind sharing how your car is modified, the tracks you're driving, and where you notice it happen worst? Do you trail brake often? Does the car feel settled before you initiate the turn?

 

[ApexEight]

I do not. Most of the time when the rear end steps out on me it's because I was trail braking too much. The caliper bushings will help keep rear pad wear more even, but won't change brake bias or brake torque in the rear.

If you're experiencing the rear end move around under braking to the point the car feels unpredictable going into a corner it could be the car has too much rear brake bias (could be pad compound is too aggressive), or the suspension needs more refinement; spring rates could be too low or dampers may not have enough low speed compression. Some amount of movement is normal to feel, the human body senses deceleration by feeling the vehicle pitch forward under braking, but if doesn't feel controllable that is another story.

Don't take what I'm about to say as pointed at you or anyone in particular, because I have no idea who you are or your experience level, this is just more of a blurb about driving and things I see/hear at the track. Braking technique is certainly a large variable and all cars will respond differently under a microscope. I would say if you find yourself engaging ABS regularly on track then you may be braking too late and too aggressively. One of the worst lies I hear told at the track is the later your brake, the faster you'll go. There are some corners where late braking is advantageous, and it certainly carries weight in wheel to wheel racing, but it's a bad rule of thumb to apply to all corners in a time trial. Ideally you only want to brake as much as you need to in order to maximize your speed through a given corner. If you're on the brakes earlier (but not too early) and input brake force more steadily over a longer period it will result in higher lateral grip because the chassis isn't becoming unsettled going into a corner by nose diving before turning. While the front tires do most of the braking grip, the rear tires need to be planted well before the turning is started otherwise the rear end won't have enough lateral grip to keep up.

Do you mind sharing how your car is modified, the tracks you're driving, and where you notice it happen worst? Do you trail brake often? Does the car feel settled before you initiate the turn?

Thanks for the reply. I'm a novice and will be going to my first track day in the R in November, but I brought it up bc of discussion in this thread: https://www.civicx.com/forum/thread...ades-for-track-use.59629/page-12#post-1178533

I experienced this on the street though, in just hard straight line braking. Nothing too serious though, obviously, just a little wiggle from the rear. Currently on stock pads and rotors front and rear but will be on Paragon front rotors, and Project Mu CR pads front and rear (with your caliper bushings!) for the track day.

 

[Austin@Wunderladen Racing]

Thanks for the reply. I'm a novice and will be going to my first track day in the R in November, but I brought it up bc of discussion in this thread: https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/let’s-talk-brake-upgrades-for-track-use.59629/page-12#post-1178533

I experienced this on the street though, in just hard straight line braking. Nothing too serious though, obviously, just a little wiggle from the rear. Currently on stock pads and rotors front and rear but will be on Paragon front rotors, and Project Mu CR pads front and rear (with your caliper bushings!) for the track day.

Awesome! I think this is a great platform to learn with, it's a solid balance between out of the box capability with plenty of room to grow as you gain experience, but not too intimidating for novices. Be sure to share how your first day goes, I'm moving down to SC later this year and am excited to try tracks down in that part of the country!

I would say a small wiggle is nothing to worry about, it's just part of the way the vehicle is telling you it's decelerating. If the wiggle turns into a wag, and the wag is unsettling the car too much then there are likely some things that need changing.

I try to stay up to date on that thread when I can. To me it seems like fairly normal braking behavior to me based on what guys have said. Normally factory brake setups are pretty heavily front biased, so you'd have to make a lot of changes to the bias to move it to the rear so much that it becomes rear biased (which is definitely not desirable). With the brake setup on my car my front brakes move bias to the rear by 10% (which is a fairly large change) and I don't feel like the car has too much rear brake, but I'm also on small rear brakes though (base model 260mm rotor) which will be changing when I need rear brakes again (likely next track season) and I'll toss some Si rear brakes on, but by then the front brakes won't be moving bias to the rear so much.

 

[Austin@Wunderladen Racing]

So about a week ago I had a pretty peculiar failure. I went to start the Civic on a cold morning and heard a pop sound when pushing the clutch pedal in and the clutch pedal got noticeably softer. Luckily it happened in my driveway and not elsewhere since I ended up being unable to go into gear after a few more pushes of the pedal. After some diagnosing it seems the diaphragm for the release damper in the master cylinder ended up failing. The pop sound I heard was one of the three retaining bolts for the diaphragm cover shearing in half and shooting into my firewall.

So instead of chancing a failure like this again, I came up with a more reliable replacement I grabbed a clutch master from an earlier Civic that doesn't use a release damper. There are some minor differences that required some changes to make it work but basically I ended up swapping over the threaded rod and fork that attaches to the pedal since the ones it came with were too short. Then I made a custom clutch line since where the line attaches is not in the same place. I figured I may as well have it go straight to the slave cylinder and eliminate 2 potential places for leaks to develop too plus get rid of the rubber factory line.

I just finished getting it back together today and have noticed the clutch feels a tad more direct, which is an improvement in my book. The piston size is the same as stock so there's no change in pedal effort. If there is interest this is definitely something we can offer for the community. Basically would be this master cylinder setup and ready to go (not requiring you to swap over parts like I did) and the braided line. Let me know if it's something that interests you guys.

 

[Austin@Wunderladen Racing]

More bad news, seems the clutch is slipping even worse now. Starts slipping on low boost at just half throttle so something is definitely going downhill in the bellhousing. Wasn't planning to change it out until later this winter but may have to bump that to sooner than later.

Planning on going with the RV6 flywheel with an OE FK8 clutch, will probably be a bit heavier than the CM twin in there now but I'd definitely welcome a less chattery clutch seeing as it is my primary street car.

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