First Oil Change

[bubbaleenc]

For clarification, the difference between mass-produced car engines and unit-produced locomotive and aircraft engines is summarized thus:

Most automotive internal combustion engines (exotics such as McLaren exclluded) are mass-produced by the 10s to 100s of thousands by machines within exceptionally tight tolerances and are "batch tested" (taking representative samples from each production lot). Each new engine is cleaned inside and out, over-filled with lubricating fluid (similar to, but chemically different than regular or break-in motor oils), drained, and sometimes cleaned, filled and drained subsequent times to remove all significant metal shavings. The engine that is installed in most mass-produced cars is exceptionally clean and just needing new fluid to operate straight after installation.

Unit-produced aircraft engines are made mostly by hand. Testing occurs on each unit. The quality tested unit is then installed in the aircraft. The engine undergoes a rigorous initialization period (break-in) that settles each part and clears the myriad metal and other Foreign Objects from the initial build. Once the aircraft is certified for service (after tightly regulated initialization), fluid changes are still required on a strictly regulated interval due to the vastly different forces and conditions a jet / prop engine experience versus a passenger vehicle.

Wisdom of one engine type and application is useful, but does not necessarily translate to all other engine applications.

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[planedoc]

For clarification, the difference between mass-produced car engines and unit-produced locomotive and aircraft engines is summarized thus:

Most automotive internal combustion engines (exotics such as McLaren exclluded) are mass-produced by the 10s to 100s of thousands by machines within exceptionally tight tolerances and are "batch tested" (taking representative samples from each production lot). Each new engine is cleaned inside and out, over-filled with lubricating fluid (similar to, but chemically different than regular or break-in motor oils), drained, and sometimes cleaned, filled and drained subsequent times to remove all significant metal shavings. The engine that is installed in most mass-produced cars is exceptionally clean and just needing new fluid to operate straight after installation.

Unit-produced aircraft engines are made mostly by hand. Testing occurs on each unit. The quality tested unit is then installed in the aircraft. The engine undergoes a rigorous initialization period (break-in) that settles each part and clears the myriad metal and other Foreign Objects from the initial build. Once the aircraft is certified for service (after tightly regulated initialization), fluid changes are still required on a strictly regulated interval due to the vastly different forces and conditions a jet / prop engine experience versus a passenger vehicle.

Wisdom of one engine type and application is useful, but does not necessarily translate to all other engine applications.

If I trusted engineers, I might buy your extended drain argument. But I don't. I have spent 40 years fixing engineering fails, screw ups and all around buffoonery! They love to pat themselves on the back and believe they are the masters of the universe, but, the truth is, they mess up a LOT! So I will stick with what I KNOW works. That is, changing oil at about 100 hours of operation. How many miles is that? Well, depends on how and where you drive. I've had a couple cars that had hour meters. Over many years, I've learned my driving averages 33mph. So, I change my oil at 3300 miles in vehicles without hour meters. If I were going on a long trip, and was averaging 60mph, I would have no problem going 6000 miles in that case.
Conversely, one time, in an hour meter equipped vehicle, when I had done a lot of city driving, I reached 100 hours at just 2200 miles. I changed the oil. My engines never use ANY oil at all. They are still like new clean inside at high miles, don't leak oil, and never break down. I will stay with what I know works!
Sorry, just realized I responded to the wrong post here. My bad...

 

[bubbaleenc]

...That is, changing oil at about 100 hours of operation...

Changing oil based on hours of service instead of miles is probably a much better method of service interval determination.

As to your engines never "using oil", I have absolutely no doubt that's true if you change as described. As for my experiences, a few years ago my 2001 4Runner developed a very minor leak in the valve cover gasket (that is, I saw dirt accumulating in semicircles at a couple points on the head). 3rd Gen 4Runners are notorious for it. It was nothing most folks would have ever worried about, but I am anal about a perfect engine! When I popped off the valve covers I was amazed (and very proud) of how clean and smooth everything was along the valve train at 200k miles.

I change my oil in that rig with synth blend 5W30 every 5,000 to 7,500 miles (like you, depending on the nature of my driving - short trips and off-roading a touch under 5k; generally highway a touch over 7k). No oil leaks on my shiny garage floor or white driveway (that would soooo kill me!) and no lubricant-sourced Hydrocarbons in my exhaust (Thank you Gas Chromatography!) and the rig has just short of 300k miles now - and runs like new! I will say though that volume of engine oil does go down by about 1/4 to 1/2 quart over 5,000 miles due to volatilization over those periods. That is ok with me since HPLC analysis indicates that it is non-lubricating organics that are vaporizing and not anything that will cause problems with the motor.

And as to the comments about engineers, I can tell you work(ed) in the MRO world! It is so true - it seem like most of them figure that QC will fix everything they miscalculate. Those are stories for a different day... But Honda has a renowned track record of attracting and keeping the best slide-rules in the industry. And although I have never tried to find the code they use to attempt to predict oil breakdown, I am convinced from Honda's track record of excellence and the widespread use of the prediction methodology with no reported problems in the past 10 years or so (Acura, MB, BMW, Lexus and several other have been using it for a long time) that abiding by the Civic's monitor in conjunction with using high-quality lubricant & filters will be sufficient to keep the car running for as long as my trusty 4Runner!

 

[bubbaleenc]

If anyone else wants to follow their hours between oil changes, it is actually easy on the EX Civic on up:
Set one of the trip meters to be manually reset (not on each fill up or start)
Go to the Trip information window and it will show how many hours your car was running since last reset.
Reset the meter with every oil change, and voila!

 

[Mocha90210]

Hate to stir the pot, but there's a bit of misinformation in here and I'd hate for it to cause undue fear. I have a Chemistry degree, have been working on cars for 2 decades and have seen firsthand how car engines are made AND how other engines are built (locomotive, aircraft, and boat to be specific). Mass-produced car and boat engines today are NOT made in the same way as unit built engines in locomotives and aircraft.

First, the initial 0W20 "break-in" oil in the new car has been previously demonstrated to have higher Mo content which aids in curing the virgin metal in the engine. You want to keep that oil in the car until either 1) the filter reaches the limit of the load of particles it can filter (including micro shavings of engine production - which are quite few due to engine production processes today) or 2) the oil reaches the point where the chemical makeup will begin to change (aka, "shear", "breakdown" and similar terms). Removing the oil early will not likely cause long-term problems for the engine, but it won't help either since both the oil and filter still have a long way to go before reaching the end of their respective lives. Leaving it in until the Oil Monitor says change is ideal since it gives the engine the maximum exposure to the heavy MO content.

Second, subsequent oil changes with 0W20, API-rated fluid will have the same 2 considerations as above, except that there isn't additional MO since it is chemically unnecessary after the first 7,500 miles or so (the metal surfaces are sufficiently cured by that time). Changing more frequently than the oil monitor recommends will not cause any long-term problems for the engine.

Chemical analysis by API and countless others show that 0W20 oil is rated for "extended service" which means it does not exhibit chemical makeup changes described above for at least 10,000 miles of heavy use. Quality-branded oil filters have also been proven by API and countless others to show that they do not reach 50% particulate saturation in an otherwise well-maintained engine for at least 10,000 miles (and premium filters go beyond 20,000 miles now).

In short, you can change your oil as often as you want or can afford. But picking 5,000 or 3,000 mile intervals is physically and chemically as arbitrary as picking 500 mile intervals to change your oil. Changing your oil after your monitor goes under 0% will certainly introduce problems to your engine's longevity. As demonstrated by Honda, the monitor is not simply a glorified odometer but an output based on several sensors in the engine that are used to mathematically predict the timing of oil chemical change. Since quality filters outlast oil by significant margins (2:1 or more), the calculation only takes projected oil life into consideration.

Personally, I change my oil when the monitor says 10% (which is actually between 5% and 10% life remaining). Why not 0%? Because I know how life goes - I'll get caught up with family and career and end up driving 2,000 miles (which can be in a single month at times) before realizing it.

Honda sells too many extended warranties with "lifetime" engine coverage to give people a dishonest "planned obsolescence" number forcing one to buy a new car in 5 years. Not to mention the wretched PR and hit to brand loyalty and reputation such foolishness would create.

So change your oil at 500 mile intervals. Or at 0-5% life remaining on the monitor. Enjoy the drive either way!

Thank you. Seriously. Thank you.

 

[unr1]

hit 10K miles and at 10%. Although it may drop to 5% soon.

Will take for first oil change very soon

 

[Mocha90210]

hit 10K miles and at 10%. Although it may drop to 5% soon.

Will take for first oil change very soon

How many months are you at? Mine was 13,000 km and around 9 months. I'm loving the long intervals between servicing.

 

[unr1]

How many months are you at? Mine was 13,000 km and around 9 months. I'm loving the long intervals between servicing.

Got it at the beginning of last September.

 

[WNC_Civic]

Hit 6400 miles today with 50% left on the oil life meter

Went ahead and changed the oil and filter at the dealership,wont be going beyond 5000 miles from here on out.

My dealership agrees with my idea of 5000 mile oil changes and not the MM oil life

 

[Boz]

Hit 6400 miles today with 50% left on the oil life meter

Went ahead and changed the oil and filter at the dealership,wont be going beyond 5000 miles from here on out.

My dealership agrees with my idea of 5000 mile oil changes and not the MM oil life

Wow! That's really amazing. If you would have let it continue, you'd probably get over 10,000 miles before you hit 10%!

 

[Civics4Ever]

Hit 6400 miles today with 50% left on the oil life meter

Went ahead and changed the oil and filter at the dealership,wont be going beyond 5000 miles from here on out.

My dealership agrees with my idea of 5000 mile oil changes and not the MM oil life

Any dealer would tell you that. More money for them in the long run. I did my 1st change at 30% and 7500 miles. I now have 12000 and am thinking I'll change it pretty soon again. No matter what tests and what people say about oil lasting is fine. But personally, I don't think I'll go much farther than 5000 between changes. You change oil maybe twice a year at that rate. Oil and filters are relatively inexpensive, if you can afford this car, you can afford 2 changes a year.

 

[WNC_Civic]

Wow! That's really amazing. If you would have let it continue, you'd probably get over 10,000 miles before you hit 10%!

I drive @90% highway miles so i was guessing i would have went 10,000 miles easily before hitting 10% oil life.Way to much to go before changing my oil.I need this car to last 200,000 miles at the least.I bought it to be my mule to travel to work and save miles on my Tacoma 4x4 and to save money on gas


In case anyone is wondering mine is a 2017 LX 2.0 coupe 6 speed.

Any dealer would tell you that. More money for them in the long run. I did my 1st change at 30% and 7500 miles. I now have 12000 and am thinking I'll change it pretty soon again. No matter what tests and what people say about oil lasting is fine. But personally, I don't think I'll go much farther than 5000 between changes. You change oil maybe twice a year at that rate. Oil and filters are relatively inexpensive, if you can afford this car, you can afford 2 changes a year.

I know they would,more money for them.I agree with you 5000 miles is what i a comfortable with between oil changes.Its easier to get the tires rotated too at that interval.

If i had went with the 10-15% oil life change i would have went over 10,000 miles which is absurd to do at least for me.

 

[Mocha90210]

I'm giving the keys back after 4 years so I plan to follow the MM. At my current pace, I will change the oil 5-6 times in 4 years. Any issues that arise will be warranty repairs, as I can prove I'm following Honda's recommendation. My dealership always gives me a loaner.

I'm not sure what I'd do if I needed it to last 300,000 km. I suppose I'd consider more frequent oil changes.

 

[WNC_Civic]

I'm giving the keys back after 4 years so I plan to follow the MM. At my current pace, I will change the oil 5-6 times in 4 years. Any issues that arise will be warranty repairs, as I can prove I'm following Honda's recommendation. My dealership always gives me a loaner.

I'm not sure what I'd do if I needed it to last 300,000 km. I suppose I'd consider more frequent oil changes.

Im with you on that.If i was to only keep it for 4-5 years i would follow the MM too as the car will still have a ways to go before any issues may arise if changing the oil per the MM intervals caused a problem,which i dont think it will.

I really want mine to last 200,000+ because after the 4th-5th year the car is paying me back with low cost to own and drive it.I can save between $10,000-12000 over a ten year period just in gas due to my long commute and thats with gas being what it is today at @$2.00-2.30 gallon.Anything over ten years for me is more money in my pocket until the car starts taking money due to getting old and worn out ,then i will sell it and start the process over again.

 

[Mocha90210]

Im with you on that.If i was to only keep it for 4-5 years i would follow the MM too as the car will still have a ways to go before any issues may arise if changing the oil per the MM intervals caused a problem,which i dont think it will.

I really want mine to last 200,000+ because after the 4th-5th year the car is paying me back with low cost to own and drive it.I can save between $10,000-12000 over a ten year period just in gas due to my long commute and thats with gas being what it is today at @$2.00-2.30 gallon.Anything over ten years for me is more money in my pocket until the car starts taking money due to getting old and worn out ,then i will sell it and start the process over again.

Totally hear you. My previous car was an Accord, and I religiously changed the oil at 6000km intervals (approx 3500 miles). It lasted over 350,000 km, and I was still able to sell it for a decent amount. Once the car was paid off, it was very cheap to operate. On top of that, I had free oil changes for life. Mind you, even then, I was simply following Honda's recommendation (every 6,000 km or 3 months).

i owned my first 2 cars over 12 years each. These days, it's more about having fun driving something current all the time.

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