Effectiveness of Oil Coolers at the Track

[Dave B]

Glad to start a specific question here on the new Type R specific Tracking forums.

For those of you with oil coolers, do you have any data on how much difference they make to oil temps?

I have added a front Trackspec vent to a stock hood and it has helped big time with coolant temps and in particular, if backing off, the temps can drop from 225 to 195 quite quickly in 85 F temps according to my LogR app. Oil temps take a lot longer (and yes I know it is not measured directly) and hit 266 but take quite a while to drop to the 240s. Interesting that I definitely have less power at the higher temps but no limp mode.

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[Centripetal]

Oil temps take a lot longer (and yes I know it is not measured directly) and hit 266 but take quite a while to drop to the 240s. Interesting that I definitely have less power at the higher temps but no limp mode.

The Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT1) is used for calculating the "corrected" fuel injection amount and ignition timing.

 

[Dave B]

The Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT1) is used for calculating the "corrected" fuel injection amount and ignition timing.

Is that the only thing that gets the computer to cut power? What about IATs?

 

[Centripetal]

Nope. I did not mention that one because I assumed that was pretty well known as that's a table we are allowed to edit in Hondata. These are the ones of the top of my head but not limited to.

Ignition timing: Intake Air Temperature, Engine Coolant Temperature, Atmospheric Pressure and Knock Sensor
Fuel Injection: Intake Air Temperature, Engine Coolant Temperature, Atmospheric Pressure, Air/Fuel Sensor(s), EVAP Canister Purge Value, Manifold Absolute Pressure and Fuel Rail Pressure

As a fallback to the mathematical models in the Bosch ECU/ECM, there are tables that limit when certain thresholds are met. For example, when the car is warming up (ECT below a specific threshold), it may limit how lean the lambda is e.g. force it to run rich. The reason I mention this is it may be difficult to determine simply by observation (without a ton of data and combination of situations), which is the limiting attribute. Consequently, it could be IAT limiting ignition advance and ECT limiting fueling or visa-versa, or just either.

 

[Dave B]

Thanks for the info. Seems that oil temp is not a major determinant .

 

[Centripetal]

Thanks for the info. Seems that oil temp is not a major determinant .

I am not sure how you came to that conclusion.

I only provided a list of sensors that directly affect the “correction” calculations.

There’s no actual oil temperature sensor in North American FK8’s but it certainly can be derived from ECT and Oil Pressure.

Oil pressure should stay above 400 kPa at 3000 RPM and above. If your oil pressure drops below that, an oil cooler may help. I'm certain it has been discussed before and I will edit this post with a link later.

 

[Night Fury]

Glad to start a specific question here on the new Type R specific Tracking forums.

For those of you with oil coolers, do you have any data on how much difference they make to oil temps?

I have added a front Trackspec vent to a stock hood and it has helped big time with coolant temps and in particular, if backing off, the temps can drop from 225 to 195 quite quickly in 85 F temps according to my LogR app. Oil temps take a lot longer (and yes I know it is not measured directly) and hit 266 but take quite a while to drop to the 240s. Interesting that I definitely have less power at the higher temps but no limp mode.

Hi there,
-Do you have pics of the vents installed?
-I have to look for the picture, or if any other fellow user recalls it can post it, but 2 years ago someone posted a pic where it clearly shows the gauge show less than the normal position, this thanks to the oil cooler.
_Can you please explain about the power drop, did you feel it? how can you tell or it was feeling laggy due the heat?

Thanks!

 

[Centripetal]

Just be aware that if you change the thermal system by adding an air oil cooler, the model Bosch uses to calculate Oil Temperature may be invalid.

 

[Dave B]

The algorithms of determining oil temp I am sure use multiple factors including pressure and coolant temps. The issue re using a higher viscosity oil might make the viscosity seem higher at a certain temperature which might fool the computer into thinking the temperature is lower when in actual fact the temperature may be higher due to the increase in viscosity. I would also think that adding a cooler would potentially decrease the oil pressure as it provides more resistance to flow but I guess that varies with the plumbing approach.

Night Fury, I don't have a picture of my own install but if you look at Trackspec you can see a mock up of the vents. I only did the front one and not the side ones. I think it is ideally placed over the turbo and far enough forward but only goes back as far as the hood scoop.

 

[Centripetal]

The easiest method to derive oil temperature I think would be using Ambient Air Temperature and both Engine Coolant Temperature sensors.

Yes, an oil cooler could increase resistance to flow. I know there have been posts with oil pressure being both low and normal. Honestly, choosing a different oil filter can make the largest difference in oil pressure. Honda Oil filters don't filter as much but they certainly flow more.

I haven't been able to find any good shared data on the oil cooler except this one post. I'd want to see Oil Pressure, Oil Temperature (from a sensor), Engine Coolant Temperature(s) and Ambient Temperature.

 

[TheCanadian]

I doubt adding a oil cooler would affect the oil temperature calculation. The computer probably uses correlated data and will just look at data points for the lower (cooler) pressure

 

[Dave B]

I doubt adding a oil cooler would affect the oil temperature calculation. The computer probably uses correlated data and will just look at data points for the lower (cooler) pressure

If oil pressure is part of the equation, then a cooler could conceivably drop the pressure.

Certainly good synthetic oils should have no issue with oil temps hitting 300 F (or so my sources at Mobil 1 claim) but not sure about the engine itself.

Given the small size of most oil coolers and that they don't seem to be mounted in areas with the best airflow, I am wondering how important they are. Certainly keeping coolant temps down makes good sense but venting and a bigger or more efficient radiator makes a lot more sense. I was surprised that adding my hood vent kept coolant temps down according to LogR but was not as effective for oil temps (again according to LogR).

 

[Lust]

Until we know how LogR calculates OilT, we have to assume that anything other than an OEM car could have skewed numbers.

Cold coolant and hot oil is the way to go. For example, NASCAR operates in the 300F range because they found more power and efficiency. This is made possible with modern synthetic oils and some other things.

How hot should oil be in the FK8? I’m not sure. I think the only way to know would be to ask a Honda engineer.

What I can say, though is that the car wants to be kept below 210F ECT and 110F IAT for peak power. Anything above that the car will pull timing, boost, ignition, etc.

I think pressure more than anything should be a concern as oil starvation or low pressure is way more harmful than hot oil.

 

[Dave B]

Sounds reasonable.

I will start another thread re IATs.

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