Early Opinions re Track Use

[Dave B]

I have a fair number of years of tracking and racing various cars, almost all of them American V8s, my most recent one being a Corvette C5 Z06 with a stock motor, some alignment and Koni shocks. Took the plunge earlier this year and bought a CW 2020 CTR. Obviously totally different vehicle but decided I needed to try it stock before making any mods etc. Have ended up with 2 days at a track I know well. Lots of 3rd gear corners, and only 2 4th gear corners, top speed about 110 MPH.

https://shannonville.com

So after I got about 1000 miles on the car, I took it to the track for 2 different lapping days in relatively cool temps i.e. around 70. Stock wheels, brakes and factory alignment and here are some of my thoughts.

1) Personally I did not have any overheating issues but rarely ran more than 8 laps of the 2.4 mile track in a row and left the heater on full blast.
2) Stock Continentals are good for a few laps but not a lot more, i.e. they overheat fairly quickly
3) Stock brakes are great but again not for a long time. I run with the double push VSA off in R mode and didn't do the pedal dance. Was not aware of any intrusion by the rear brakes which were no where near as worn as the fronts. I know some folks here think you need to do the pedal dance to get the system completely turned off but that would not be my experience. (Also I believe the pedal dance doesn't work in R mode and I really like the OEM shocks in R mode). Brake feels was excellent but the pedal got mushy after the session was over I suspect due to fluid issues more than pad issues.
4) The limited slip is good but I can still get some wheel spin in hard R hand turns in 3rd gear but easily controllable
5) The car rolls more than I expected but was very stable
6) Seat is very good and shifter is excellent.

So what would I do first? Obviously 18" wheels with real tires and a lot of negative camber for handling, even if the car does roll a fair bit. Also needs better front brake pads (already took Lust's advice and ordered from Paragon) as well as race brake fluid. Personally I am a huge fan of Castrol SRF. Not sure if radiator or oil cooler or both is the right approach but I need to be prepared for hotter days. I think suspension changes other than camber should wait for a bit and I was pleasantly surprised at how well the OEM shocks work in R mode.

So did I like it? You bet. Not quite as fast as the Corvette but way better brakes, shifter, seat and aero than the Corvette and still a very useful car for the street. Given the gains from better and lighter wheel/tire combo and alignment I would not be surprised if the CTR can come very close to the Corvette lap times on this fairly twisty track even while giving up some top speed. Good work Honda !!

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[ApexEight]

Solid writeup, thanks for sharing your experience. In for more updates. Do you plan on getting front camber-adjustable ball joints from Hardrace or Megan Racing?

 

[Dave B]

I had only heard of the Hardrace ones. Fortunately the concept seems pretty straight forward although it will likely change the scrub radius somewhat. OTOH, I would think the gains would outweigh any losses.

 

[MadMage]

Thanks for the write-up. Curious what configuration the track was in when you were running it?

 

[Dave B]

If you look at the website, it was the Long or Full track. 4 KM or 2.4 miles. Only 1 second gear corner at the hairpin on to the long back straight. Turns 1 and 5 are 4th gear and I was more comfortable with Turn 6 (a double apex) in 4th although in other cars it would be third gear. Actually the turn at the end of the longest straight is also 4 th gear although in a number of cars, it would be third. Running right up to redline in 4th before that but data logging says going to 5th is actually a bit slower.

OTOH, I would assume better rubber and camber would mean significant improvements in exit speed from the hairpin which will require 5th gear on the straight.

 

[ayau]

I’d be curious on your oil temp and pressure from the LogR app.

Unfortunately for my last event, LogR wasn’t available yet.

You could try -1.7 camber with the front guide pins removed and about 40psi. Depending on how often you track your car, you may not want over -2.5 of camber anyway.

 

[Dave B]

Actually I did post here https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/engine-cooling-data-from-track-use-with-logr.55518/

Briefly, coolant temps never went up but oil temps hit the high 240s but didn't trigger limp mode. Was hoping to get there but ran out of brakes.

Have to admit, I would not consider running the stock Contis on the track more than for a shits and giggles first time. There are numerous choices of tires that can handle heat much better.

 

[metal_driver]

Dave, thank you for the write up. Clearly you have a lot more track/seat time than I do, as I am just starting out. I did do one track day this summer at Shannoville. I was using the following set up in addition to a few cooling mods;
- G-Loc R-8 front pads, GS-1 rear pads,
- Girodisc front brake discs, and titanium brake pad shields,
- Motul RBF 600 brake fluid,
- Hardrace front lower camber adjusters, and
- NSX wheel install with brand new Michelin Cup 2's.

I was very happy with the cars turning and braking capability and the car seemed to rotate fairly nicely when needed. Again, take this all with a grain of salt given my experience level.

I also ran a full day HPDE at Shannonville on 31 July and the high that day was 29C/84F. No overheating issues at all. I think the oil cooler is a great place to start. For more info on my set up refer to: https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/jeffs-build-for-occasional-light-track-use.51054/

 

[ApexEight]

I had only heard of the Hardrace ones. Fortunately the concept seems pretty straight forward although it will likely change the scrub radius somewhat. OTOH, I would think the gains would outweigh any losses.

The Megan ones are identical and probably produced in the same factory. Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about changing scrub radius, plenty of guys running a good amount of camber and +40 to +45 with no severe detriments.

 

[GraphiteAZ]

Anyone that tracks their car try a flex fuel setup? Allegedly ethanol can make the car run cooler, but not sure E25/E30 would make much of a difference.

 

[Dave B]

I had a similar question re octane etc. Here in Canada, I normally run an NA engine, and use Shell 91 which has zero ethanol. Given that the HP rating on CTRs are different in England vs North America, apparently due to varying degrees of anti knock, I was wondering if a higher octane actually gives more HP. So I tried some Petro Can 94 Octane (has lots of ethanol)for the second trip to the track. I would assume the computer needs some time to learn the new Octane but by the end of the day, my data logger showed some better acceleration in 4th gear and about a 2 MPH higher speed at the end of the straight. Is this a random change or real? I wonder if any Canadians have dyno runs on different available gasolines.

 

[ayau]

I had a similar question re octane etc. Here in Canada, I normally run an NA engine, and use Shell 91 which has zero ethanol. Given that the HP rating on CTRs are different in England vs North America, apparently due to varying degrees of anti knock, I was wondering if a higher octane actually gives more HP. So I tried some Petro Can 94 Octane (has lots of ethanol)for the second trip to the track. I would assume the computer needs some time to learn the new Octane but by the end of the day, my data logger showed some better acceleration in 4th gear and about a 2 MPH higher speed at the end of the straight. Is this a random change or real? I wonder if any Canadians have dyno runs on different available gasolines.

It's pretty much accepted that E0 91 has some knock. How much? Not sure. The engine really needs 93 E10 at a minimum on factory tune.

 

[kefi]

I would assume the computer needs some time to learn the new Octane

Our ECU, unlike every other 10th gen, doesn't do this. Read more here: https://fk8.wiki/Knock_Strategy

 

[b2point0h]

Anyone that tracks their car try a flex fuel setup? Allegedly ethanol can make the car run cooler, but not sure E25/E30 would make much of a difference.

I had a similar question re octane etc. Here in Canada, I normally run an NA engine, and use Shell 91 which has zero ethanol. Given that the HP rating on CTRs are different in England vs North America, apparently due to varying degrees of anti knock, I was wondering if a higher octane actually gives more HP. So I tried some Petro Can 94 Octane (has lots of ethanol)for the second trip to the track. I would assume the computer needs some time to learn the new Octane but by the end of the day, my data logger showed some better acceleration in 4th gear and about a 2 MPH higher speed at the end of the straight. Is this a random change or real? I wonder if any Canadians have dyno runs on different available gasolines.

Yes. Running an E25 tune on 24psi and have no cooling issues anymore. Able to run 8-10 laps at 10/10ths before doing a cool down lap. Only had to turn on heater after 5 or 6 laps. IMO the E25 tune with lower boost makes the largest noticeable difference on track

 

[LURK-R]

Yes. Running an E25 tune on 24psi and have no cooling issues anymore. Able to run 8-10 laps at 10/10ths before doing a cool down lap. Only had to turn on heater after 5 or 6 laps. IMO the E25 tune with lower boost makes the largest noticeable difference on track

Would you recommend higher octane (95 octane) with a 91 octane tune to mitigate heat, knock ceiling, car pulling timing, etc. for a track day? Currently overheating after a lap or so on a 10/10th flying laps. I'm simply not ready to dump thousands of dollars on unproven cooling mods, on a car that sees less than a handful of track days per year. But I am willing to try little things. Thanks!

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