Drivermod Dadmobile Daily Si Journal

[st4xor]

Big brake kit: I decided quite some time ago that it was not a matter of "if", but "when". For track-driven cars, the BBK praise is practically unanimous. Driving in a way that approaches the limit involves an immense amount of braking technique and precision. It's still a work-in-progress for me as I attempt to translate sim racing to the real world, but in sim racing land I spend nearly all of my effort these days trying to hunt down those elusive tenths here and there comparing brake traces trying to optimize the dance on the brake pedal.

So when @Austin@Wunderladen Racing and team released the WR BBK kit that checked all of my "requirements" and "desirements" boxes, I decided that "now" is was the right time to start the getting to know you phase with a real big-boy brake setup that I expect will serve me for the entirety of my adventures with this chassis:

I'm really excited to experience how these feel out on track, and am looking forward to "surprises" this piece of equipment might yield. But I'm also going in to this experience hoping that this BBK will alleviate something I believe I captured (ok, ok--you're right, there is somewhat of a risk of confirmation bias here) both subjectively (mental notes) and in data on my most recent track outing.

My track day adventures so far have been a little bit of a cat & mouse game with brakes. I've gone through a couple iterations now of buying incrementally more capable braking equipment that seems "good enough", but then driver gets a little faster or in general asks more of the brakes and the incrementally-won confidence erodes.

Case-in-point: at my most recent track day, instructor says about the T1 braking zone at the end of the main strait "you can probably brake at the 3 board" after the T1 braking zone on the first flying lap of session #3 ("dry", whereas the previous sessions had been "wet" and then "damp") where had I applied the brakes at the 5 board. Right after he said that, in my gut (while eyes/hands/feet/brain were busy getting around the next sequence of turns ahead) I knew my answer to that encouragement was "definitely not all session". By that point from what I had experienced in prior sessions, I knew at a subconscious level (I don't yet look at data while I'm out at the track) that stopping distances would likely grow throughout the session and I strongly suspected that I would be marching my braking point steadily backwards. But the comment from my instructor did cause me to pay a bit more attention to what the brake pedal was telling me in T1 over the course of the remaining sessions, which I would in general characterize as "press earlier and harder".

So I was interested, then, to look back through some data from Track Day 4 data logs to see if the data supported the narrative that was going through my head at a subjective/feel level. The plot below shows maximum G's measured under braking (red line) by my racebox mini for laps 2 through 14 of session #4 for the day (lap 1 was my out lap). As a control variable, i've also plotted maximum cornering G's for each lap in blue, just in attempt to rule out tires overheating as a potential root cause:

(Note: OE powertrain at stock power levels)

So is this pad fade for the XP8 pads I was running (operating range up to 1250 degrees F)? Possibly. Given that it was me behind the wheel, its not impossible that there is a driver factor at play here. But given that my mental state was "brake harder and earlier" for T1 as the session progressed, I suspect that I was reacting to the the information being fed back to me by the car, and I really wasn't getting as much out of the brake pedal as the session progressed.

So there are obviously a number of options to solve brake pad fade, but none are without drawbacks. The most obvious is perhaps diving deeper in to the Carbotech (or G-loc equivalent) product catalog for an XP10 (up to 1475 F operating range) or XP12 (1850 F operating range). But each step-up in compound puts more stress on on OE braking system and surounding components--none of which are terribly fond of extreme heat. And you also give up a bit of modulation ability (which is already pretty poor on the OE sliding caliper system). Not to mention that the more aggressive pads and higher-temp brake fluid get more expensive, while pads/rotors begin to last less long.

So for me, I've decided to make a BBK "leap" in to something that gives me room to grow instead of continuing to take more incremental steps. Install notes and track impressions (back at Summit Main on 8/4) to come, watch this space.

 

[Justin Bell]

Big brake kit: I decided quite some time ago that it was not a matter of "if", but "when". For track-driven cars, the BBK praise is practically unanimous. Driving in a way that approaches the limit involves an immense amount of braking technique and precision. It's still a work-in-progress for me as I attempt to translate sim racing to the real world, but in sim racing land I spend nearly all of my effort these days trying to hunt down those elusive tenths here and there comparing brake traces trying to optimize the dance on the brake pedal.

So when @Austin@Wunderladen Racing and team released the WR BBK kit that checked all of my "requirements" and "desirements" boxes, I decided that "now" is was the right time to start the getting to know you phase with a real big-boy brake setup that I expect will serve me for the entirety of my adventures with this chassis:

I'm really excited to experience how these feel out on track, and am looking forward to "surprises" this piece of equipment might yield. But I'm also going in to this experience hoping that this BBK will alleviate something I believe I captured (ok, ok--you're right, there is somewhat of a risk of confirmation bias here) both subjectively (mental notes) and in data on my most recent track outing.

My track day adventures so far have been a little bit of a cat & mouse game with brakes. I've gone through a couple iterations now of buying incrementally more capable braking equipment that seems "good enough", but then driver gets a little faster or in general asks more of the brakes and the incrementally-won confidence erodes.

Case-in-point: at my most recent track day, instructor says about the T1 braking zone at the end of the main strait "you can probably brake at the 3 board" after the T1 braking zone on the first flying lap of session #3 ("dry", whereas the previous sessions had been "wet" and then "damp") where had I applied the brakes at the 5 board. Right after he said that, in my gut (while eyes/hands/feet/brain were busy getting around the next sequence of turns ahead) I knew my answer to that encouragement was "definitely not all session". By that point from what I had experienced in prior sessions, I knew at a subconscious level (I don't yet look at data while I'm out at the track) that stopping distances would likely grow throughout the session and I strongly suspected that I would be marching my braking point steadily backwards. But the comment from my instructor did cause me to pay a bit more attention to what the brake pedal was telling me in T1 over the course of the remaining sessions, which I would in general characterize as "press earlier and harder".

So I was interested, then, to look back through some data from Track Day 4 data logs to see if the data supported the narrative that was going through my head at a subjective/feel level. The plot below shows maximum G's measured under braking (red line) by my racebox mini for laps 2 through 14 of session #4 for the day (lap 1 was my out lap). As a control variable, i've also plotted maximum cornering G's for each lap in blue, just in attempt to rule out tires overheating as a potential root cause:

So is this pad fade for the XP8 pads I was running (operating range up to 1250 degrees F)? Possibly. Given that it was me behind the wheel, its not impossible that there is a driver factor at play here. But given that my mental state was "brake harder and earlier" for T1 as the session progressed, I suspect that I was reacting to the the information being fed back to me by the car, and I really wasn't getting as much out of the brake pedal as the session progressed.

So there are obviously a number of options to solve brake pad fade, but none are without drawbacks. The most obvious is perhaps diving deeper in to the Carbotech (or G-loc equivalent) product catalog for an XP10 (up to 1475 F operating range) or XP12 (1850 F operating range). But each step-up in compound puts more stress on on OE braking system and surounding components--none of which are terribly fond of extreme heat. And you also give up a bit of modulation ability (which is already pretty poor on the OE sliding caliper system). Not to mention that the more aggressive pads and higher-temp brake fluid get more expensive, while pads/rotors begin to last less long.
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So for me, I've decided to make a BBK "leap" in to something that gives me room to grow instead of continuing to take more incremental steps. Install notes and track impressions (back at Summit Main on 8/4) to come, watch this space.

Very interesting correlation by the way.

 

[st4xor]

Very interesting correlation by the way.

Agreed, I was a little surprised to see any discernable trend, hence why I decided to share.

Would be great if I had pedal pressure logging to further isolate just the braking system (remove the driver element), but alas, this is what I've got.

Also for posterity(if/when it changes in the future) I've edited the post above to note this is data for a stock power train car (ok, ok, I'll fess up... +10hp for red H badges and PRL filter kit)

 

[st4xor]

Knocked out a couple prep items this week in the run-up to track day #5 back at Summit Point Main this Friday 8/4.

First up was making sure I could fit my OE wheels over the new WR BBK in anticipation of my Conti ECS likely being all used up after this next track day. I had wanted to do extended studs + pass-through spacers both front and rear, so I bought one set of the EIbach S90-6-20-015 20mm spacers + extended studs kit (from @Austin@Wunderladen Racing, thanks Austin!) to test fit. I had watched a 10th gen civic front wheel stud install video on youtube and thought you could get away with installing the studs with the hubs on the car, but it turns out you have to remove the hubs for both the Si and hatches--the knuckle itself just doesn't give you enough clearance (here is a timely thread that goes in to more detail on the front stud challenges).

So anyway, I pivoted and put the Eibach extended stud kit on the rear of the car; and then got an H&R 20mm spacer kit (H&R part# 4065640) with the integrated mini-studs for the front. I"ll do extended studs for the front some day when I'm taking the front knuckles off anyway (looking at you future LCA front anti-lift kit+ bushings).

Extended studs were really easy to install on the rear. You have to take the rear caliper & rotor off in order to get the dust shield bolts out, but then just removing the dust shield bolts allows you to rotate the dust shield around so you can (one stud at a time) line a hole in the dust shield up with the stud holes to get old studs out and extended studs in.

Both spacer kits fit great, and the 20mm spacer gives plenty of clearance in the front to clear the WR BBK

Next up was finally tossing on the Whiteline 22mm RSB that has been sitting in my basement since Black Friday. Since springs were the new big thing for track day #4, I didn't want to change too many things at once, so opted to get at least one track day under my belt with the Whiteline lowering springs before tossing the RSB on. Was also interested in isolating just the RSB to learn a little bit more about how the RSB in specific changes the feel when approaching limit handling. Have been loving the springs for daily driving and they felt great for track day #4, so I figured it was a good time to get the RSB on there now as well.

Install was fine--a little bit tricky to get the new bar in there and then to torque the endlinks, but got it done with a little patience and creativity (also having access to a lift probably really helped the frustration factor). I followed along with the RSB install instructions/video from Progress (instructions, video) but with the Accord endlinks, double-nut on the endlink nuts with some blue Loctite, and also the Whiteline lateral locks (part# KLL22). I also could not get my 17mm + ujoint in to torque the endlink nuts like in the Progress video, so I just had the use the "good n tight" (TM) method with a ratcheting wrench and a hex key braced against the LCA holding the endlink bolt/stud in place.

Haven't had a chance to drive around with the RSB yet (fingers crossed no clunking), but rear suspension is looking real nice at this point with Whiteline springs + RSB and then the WR adjustable toe links:

Really looking forward to getting back out there with the BBK. Did a practice pad change this week and I'm glad I did because its going to take a little practice to get the perfect method worked out. Going to be running the RP-1 compound in the front and going to try to run the same set of EBC blue in the back--though when installing the extended studs in the back I was a little bit disappointed in how worn the EBC blue rears were. Looks like I actually used up about half of the pad, but I've got a spare set i'll have with me to swap at the track during lunch break if needed. I'll just kind of monitor and see. Might try running with regular VSA off (not the pedal dance) and also hoping that maybe the BBK in front and not having the front brakes overheating (see plot two posts above ^^^) might help ease the wear on the rear. Just hypotheses for now--I know lots of people see very little wear in the rear. Hoping maybe I graduate to solo after this session so I can play with VSA full off as well (pedal dance).

Will report back here some time after Friday with observations

 

[st4xor]

Track day #5 back at Summit Point Main was great. Car is prepped to a point now where its a lot of fun out there when you connect a couple corners together the right way. Definitely giving plenty of point-by's down the straights to the real serious toys out there, but it's super cool how you can hang through the tight twisty parts. But don't take just my word for it--my instructor, Tony (who casually dropped in the middle of the day that he owns two v12 Ferraris, one of which is a Testarossa), summed it up best when at the end of the day he put his hands on the dash and said "This thing rips!". I suspect maybe what he was _actually_ saying was probably something more like "I hopped in your passenger seat because I thought you'd be the slowest out there, but you weren't!" But either way, i'll take it

22mm rear sway bar (full stiff setting) and the WR BBK were the big deltas this time out as compared to track day #4. Sway bar was a surprisingly subtle change. I did drive all four sessions with just standard VSA off (just the button to disable VSA; no pedal dance), so maybe the car will feel different with the pedal dance, but I didn't feel even a hint of over-steer all day, from throttle liftoff or otherwise. Might also have something to do with alignment settings, having ~-1.5 degrees camber in the front but ~-2.2 degrees in the back. That being said, I think I may have been getting some better throttle steer through turns 6/7 (set the steering early and try to make it one continuous arc), and I had a noticeably easier time staying flat through turn 9. So maybe I would characterize the difference as "less understeer"? I think I've heard people describe the difference with the 22mm and similar bars in that way before, but it was still interesting to experience the difference first-hand. But no, car is not an oversteer monster.

I dumped most of my thoughts on the brake kit in the WR BBK thread, here. It's a bit of a wordy post and worth a read if you're in to that kind of thing. But the short story is that I'm super happy and found the big jump in braking consistency I was hoping for. Just looking at some of the data I described in the other post, I was already seeing some better braking trace shapes, had a much easier time consistently hitting apexes in the big braking zones, and am really looking forward to continue "getting to know" this brake setup for a long time to come!

Excessive rear brake pad wear seems to have magically stopped. Was it turning standard VSA off that "solved" the wear? The car honestly did not feel much different with regular VSA off, and my rear pad wear was always balanced between driver and passenger sides of the vehicle in the past. So my currently leading theory is that maybe my excessive rear pad wear was more related to the front brakes getting hot enough to fade, putting more load on the rear. Especially after looking at peak G-force plots over all Session 3 laps from TD#4 and comparing them to the same session on TD#5 with the BBK (see here again), I strongly suspect that maybe VSA wasn't to blame. I guess we'll see if it stays gone!

I'll cut this post here for now. I'll have at least one edited video and possibly some more comparison analysis coming up at some point. And also probably some thoughts on whats next!

 

[st4xor]

Finished up editing on video from 8/4, and this was the best lap of the day. Shaved off about 1.5 secs vs. my best of the day on 6/23; this was a 1:34.4



Anyone have any feedback?

I'm getting pretty close to this other random lap I found (YOHB?) on youtube (no telemetry but looks like somewhere in the 1:33 range). This driver definitely looks just a bit more relaxed than me, but not sure anything about the car:



And a race-prepped TCA-spec equivalent Si recently did a 1:29.16 in race conditions (see Jasper Drengler).

So overall feeling pretty good!

 

[st4xor]

I plan to keep track notes as I "figure things out" along the way. Instead of putting this stuff in some private google doc or something, I figured I would just tack it on here in case someone is amused by it some day.

Screenshots below are from the racebox app, which lets you easily compare laps against eachother. So this is looking at my best lap from 8/4 (blue traces) as compared to my best lap from 6/23 (red traces). Overall lap comparison is the first plot (I added a little mark-up), and then i've got some turn-specific notes with some finer-grained details.

T1: more braking deceleration, carried more speed and cornering G's were greater through the duration of the turn, but line was a little more open so extra distance resulted in no net gain. I can see the blue G-force trace (faster 8/4 lap) poking out from behind the red in a couple places, so it looks like maybe I was doing a better job using all of the traction available.

T3: Had a better/wider entry (debris on track 6/23 forced a pinched entry), carried more speed

T4: Carried more speed through the chute. This was partially more confidence through the corner, partially more.confidence that the brakes were going to be there when I stomped the pedal at T5.

T6-7-8 complex: I did a better job gradually building speed through the earlier part of this part of this segment. The goal through this series of turns is to take a set with the steering wheel once and then attempt to adjust the line with throttle only. I can see the blue g-force trace (faster 8/4 lap) poking out behind the red in a couple spots, so it looks like I was doing a better job staying closer to the traction limits. This is also where I suspect the Whiteline RSB was giving me a feeling of more front-end bite, so I was not lifting off the throttle as much.

T10: on the brakes earlier, but carried more speed through the turn. Possible that braking earlier gave a more settled/stable platform at turn-in and gave more confidence to carry more speed.

 

[Austin@Wunderladen Racing]

Finished up editing on video from 8/4, and this was the best lap of the day. Shaved off about 1.5 secs vs. my best of the day on 6/23; this was a 1:34.4



Anyone have any feedback?

I'm getting pretty close to this other random lap I found (YOHB?) on youtube (no telemetry but looks like somewhere in the 1:33 range). This driver definitely looks just a bit more relaxed than me, but not sure anything about the car:



And a race-prepped TCA-spec equivalent Si recently did a 1:29.16 in race conditions (see Jasper Drengler).

So overall feeling pretty good!

Wish I could give some useful input but I've never driven Summit Point, but your line looks good and you inputs are smooth! One thing I will say though as far as comparing to those other 2 cars, two big influences (outside of driver) are power and tires. That TCA car would very likely be on slicks which itself is probably good for 2+ seconds not to mention it's a much lighter car (~2500lbs), the other car may be rocking some power mods which will pay dividends on the longer straight portions of the track.

 

[Pearl.FC2]

Short answer: there are a good number of resources out there like this that will tell you not to turn off ESC/VSA when you're new on track, and I've not yet found a compelling reason for me with my skill level (and an Instructor in the right seat for all three days thus far) to turn it off for this car. But who knows, maybe I'm about to discover a compelling reason.

I've mentally set the bar as I'll start dabbling with TC off and then maybe VSA "disabled" when I graduate to Solo and it's only my rear end on the line.

I had to encounter this myself. VSA hinders the car and almost makes it dangerous on track. I turned it off one time and went off track got scared and it went back on. But had I slowly advanced as a driver with vsa off it would have been different. I am back to tracking with it off as its better to learn it like that, and when it corrects after getting the rear end to rotate, it can be dangerous because it will snap.

 

[st4xor]

Just chugging along in winter/daily mode, but figured I would drop an update on a couple minor things.

I don't have any major upgrades planned before track season hits this year. I'll need some new tires early in the year and probably brake pads later on. But I'm planning on doing a bunch of driving/observation of the car in its current state this year before I plan out the next phase.

However, I did want to get an oil temp and pressure sensor solution in place before track season so I can play and collect some data on a stock vehicle. Intent is to capture how good or bad the stock cooling systems work at stock power levels, with stock grille/airflow, and without an oil cooler. I ended up putting together a DIY guide for at least the temperature sensor part. Updates for the pressure sensor to follow after I figure out a good place to install the pressure sensor/sender.

Shortly after I did the temp/pressure sensor sender+wiring install, I also dealt with a P0035 error code. Highly suspect I probably jostled some wiring while I was back behind the engine for oil temp/pressure install. Also got a new interstate battery from Costco as part of this because voltage on my OE battery was definitely sagging.

Last thing of note was that santa brought me an acuity short shifter for xmas. Have been driving with that for the last almost two months and love it. Wondered for a while how much of a difference it would be from my previous setup with the stock Si shifter and all the acuity upgrade goodies. And verdict is: full shifter is awesome and worth it, provided you can justify the cost.

Going to be busy with a project at work this spring, so i'm looking at late May/June for first track day of the year. But until then, really enjoying suspension + shifter + brakes on the street. Firm/linear brake pedal with the BBK and the sweet shifter are just an awesome combo, even when you're just puttering around.

Also I've been collecting some oil temp data from just daily driving. I'll share that later this spring as I get some data points with ambient temperatures that are a little bit warmer.

 

[st4xor]

I had to encounter this myself. VSA hinders the car and almost makes it dangerous on track. I turned it off one time and went off track got scared and it went back on. But had I slowly advanced as a driver with vsa off it would have been different. I am back to tracking with it off as its better to learn it like that, and when it corrects after getting the rear end to rotate, it can be dangerous because it will snap.

Yes, I'm definitely bracing to "re-learn" how to drive after I turn VSA full-off (pedal dance). Did you notice a big difference between just "VSA off" (pressing the button) and full-off with the pedal dance?

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