CVT failure: Details inside

dallasjhawk

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It is not the same.
call a waaaaambulance. I'm done with you. You've taken this so far off topic of the thread.
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JT Si

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There was no shafting of Honda. He didn't swap all the factory parts back onto his car to hide the fact he's modding. He appropriately reverted the tune back to stock, which is a procedure that should always be followed as you do not know if the dealer will need to reprogram as part of a repair.

Nowhere does he say he lied to the dealer about what happened. The dealer was straightforward with him that either Honda would send a new tranny or they would require an investigation.

Honda reserves the right to deny warranty if the failure was due to modifications done to the vehicle, bringing it out of specification. This does not mean they will always deny warranty.

You, the customer, should not make warranty decisions for the manufacturer. Let them do it.
 

Barry

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That'd be awesome if they chimed in @KTuner . I don't even know what the base "Stage 2" that they include that is partially locked out uses early spool, but I can tell you that the Stage 2 map felt very different than my custom tune; Stage 2 was less torquey down low.
Ktuner will never shined in when a car is broke using their tune
 

biosses

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Just thought I'd share my experience with my recent CVT failure, what (probably) caused it, and how it was resolved thankfully under warranty. See TL;DR on the bottom if you don't want all the details (though the details shine a lot of light on what happened). Feel free to AMA if it's not already included in this post.

  1. Background info
    • 2018 Civic EX-T 1.5 with around 33,500 miles at time of failure
    • Performance bolt ons are as follows:
      • PRL 3" catted downpipe & frontpipe
      • AFE Takeda intake
      • 3" straight through (no mufflers or resonators) shop made catback exhaust
      • KTuner custom dyno tune targeting 24psi on the top end
    • My driving style: On weekends, for car events/meets, or just during awesome weather; sporty and aggressive. For the Monday-Friday 30 mile each way commute to work - very conservative on Eco mode.
  2. KTuner specific details
    • Early spool enabled, Improved spool II and Improved Throttle Responsiveness II.
    • On the fly maps:

    • Tune 1 is factory turbo responsiveness and factory Boost Target Ramp Rate. This tune is capped at 21psi (Eco mode is 17psi). This is what I use for the M-F commute and regular easy driving.
    • Tune 2 is Improved Turbo Responsiveness II, Boost Target Ramp Rate is Aggressive Ramp Rate II, and targets 24psi. This is what I use when I just want to feel the power, street race, etc. I use this map less than 15% of the time.
  3. So what happened?I pushed the limits (that I knew well about, thanks to this forum) on my CVT and paid the price.
    • Background: I was at a late night meet with at least 200 other cars in this industrial area of a city in my state (little to no risk of police shutting us down here). Everybody was having a great time, especially with the shenanigans. People 2 stepping, burnouts, street racing, you know how it goes. I decided to participate in a couple straight line street races against other cars in the Civic's class.
    • The first 2 races went just fine, I actually won both to my own surprise. The third one is where "it" happened.
    • I had traction control disabled (have good summer tires that don't lose traction even if floored from a dead stop), had map 2 on (the one targeting 24psi up top, aggressive ramp II, and turbo responsiveness II). Car was in "S". I flew off the line, and when I got up to around 5900rpm and the car was going to do the simulated shift point, I felt it lurch twice, then nothing. The pedal was to the floor, engine screaming, but no further movement. I let momentum bring me to the side of the road. I immediately knew the tranny went and my heart dropped. No check engine lights were present.
    • Before I had the car towed to a Honda dealer that was about 6 miles away, I returned the car to the stock tune with my KTuner v2 and unlocked it from the ECU while on the side of the road. It was Saturday-Sunday night so the dealership was closed. I dropped the key in the key drop, filled out the form, and called Monday.
    • The dealership verified transmission failure, and submitted the warranty request to "TechLine". They said that either a new transmission would show up the next day meaning the request was approved, or that they would get a call from Honda Engineering and would do an investigation first. Waiting those 24 hours for an answer was nerve wracking. I got a call the next morning, and low and behold a new transmission for me was delivered. No investigation was performed. I got my car back 3 days ago and it drives perfectly. See the below picture of the invoice I received after the service was done
Wn2eqmC.jpg

  1. Car now and going forward
    • I made the decision that though those functions in the tune are fun, I am going to pull back a good amount. I reduced the max PSI to 21, turned off early spool, and set Turbo Responsiveness and Boost Target Ramp Rate to "factory". This is a much more conservative tune and my hope is that the new CVT will last a lot longer than the original one. I feel the difference in the transmission driving with these new parameters. Before, the simulated shifts were very pronounced, especially when in the higher RPM band. It would even clunk when getting off the throttle up top. It doesn't do that anymore, and power delivery is much smoother and more "linear" feeling.

TL;DR

Was well aware of the CVT limits, pushed them anyway, then paid the price. Was doing some late night straight line street races at a meet. On the 3rd race, CVT failed. Custom dyno tune with KTuner, 24psi, early spool enabled, Turbo Responsiveness II and Aggressive Ramp Rate II. Honda dealer replaced the transmission under warranty. Moving forward I made my tune significantly more conservative. Reduced the max PSI to 21, turned off early spool, and set Turbo Responsiveness and Boost Target Ramp Rate to "factory".


Looking at all your mods, races....CVT failure 100% will happened. I would say luck was on your side.
 


a c i d.f l y

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Ktuner will never shined in when a car is broke using their tune
Not sure if it was Hondata or Ktuner, but scoring (scratching, carving) of the cones was present over 220ftlbs of torque after a day at the track. No scoring occurred at 200ftlbs with the same amount of track time.
 

10thgenhatch

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no they are not,

your just not hearing about them all,
I just talked to a Honda shop since I’m gonna be getting intercooler intake and oil cooler installed and he said he replaces the cvts “all the time” so your probably right buddy.
 

Nazeem

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Glad you got it taken care of.

Now, as someone tuned long term with a CVT I have two really important questions. You said you were "custom dyno tuned". One, I'd like to know the kind of low end torque you were producing (please post your dyno) and two, was the tune done by a pro? And then the third question... do you ever power launch?

The thing is, these CVT failures are extremely rare and I don't think I've seen any on the base/canned tunes. Also, you said it failed on your "3rd race" of the night, so clearly you went above and beyond what a typical tuned CVT owner would put their car through. Basically you torture tested it.
3 race is torcher test? This guy on YouTube did like 7 or 8 drag races after each other and his car is still fine, why is that? His name is Sal on here, and apparently he has way more power than what this op is making, it's so strange to me that the same car did 3 drag race with less power and blew while the same car did 8 drag and double power and didn't blew
 

Nazeem

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All great questions.

  1. The first one may be hard to answer. So I had 2 separate custom tunes made for me, the first one was done last year but was lost when a dealer flashed an update on my car and erased it (I have a thread on this website about that..). The original tuner would not provide me with the tune file to reflash without repaying the full original price. I have the dyno plot from that tune, here:
GBkTDdb.jpg



  • I went to a different tuner after the original tune loss who was out of state that had far better reviews and more experience who made my current tune. That being said, he could not get his dyno to read my power and torque levels properly (he never did a CVT, and every dyno is different) and we both agreed that the readings were far lower than they actually are, because the car drove better and faster than my original custom tune. I did not bother with a printout as his dyno read my power levels within +5 of the stock Honda ratings (obviously incorrect) when the other tune +40hp over stock with the exact same bolt ons. I will DM you the tune file if you'd like to see all of the changes yourself.
  • Both tuners would be considered "professionals" with full shop setups. Both companies build engines and do full custom work along with tuning.
2. I have no reason to lie here, I already know what I did and why it happened. I can honestly say I have never, not once, power launched my car. That was one thing I was never willing to do as my understanding was that even one power launch could cause immediate CVT failure. Totally not worth even trying IMO.​
3. Yes, I definitely put it through it's paces, but I think it was the turning off of the traction control that killed it in combination with the aggressive quick enables on my balls-to-the-wall map. Something felt off the moment I started off the line and I should have stopped before I got any higher in the power band.​
I'd really like to keep "early spool" turned on, but am unsure if it's safe to do so at this point considering what happened now that I have a new tranny. Maybe if I set the Turbo Responsiveness and Boost Target Ramp rate in the quick adjustment section to factory in combination with early spool will be safe. I may even reduce boost under 3,000rpm in the tune and then enable early spool, make the values closer to the ones in the 21psi base ktuner map. Any opinions on that would be appreciated!​
Was it the pedal dance Traction control u turned off or the one where u just press and hold the Traction button? Because one will turn it off completely while the other one turns it halfway off
 

dallasjhawk

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3 race is torcher test? This guy on YouTube did like 7 or 8 drag races after each other and his car is still fine, why is that? His name is Sal on here, and apparently he has way more power than what this op is making, it's so strange to me that the same car did 3 drag race with less power and blew while the same car did 8 drag and double power and didn't blew
All things the same, no its not a torture test. BUT we have no idea when the torque was hitting in the rpm band. If it was really low then all it might take is 3 hard launches at a race track to slip the belt.
 


Nazeem

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All things the same, no its not a torture test. BUT we have no idea when the torque was hitting in the rpm band. If it was really low then all it might take is 3 hard launches at a race track to slip the belt.
I guess some are just lucky, there are guys in Brazil who constantly break launches their touring sedan and not one problem yet, I know a friend in Brazil whose done tons of launches and tuned for 3 years with 80k km and he's still going strong, while right here in a Canada my college did 3 break launche at 2500 rpm and boom his tranny gone, I wonder if Brazilian civics were built strong since their stock fuel system can handle E50
 

IronFusion

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Wow... A dealership and warranty service that didn't stiff you on account of your modifications! Had you removed them before the tow?

TechLine didn't quibble over the mods?

Just thought I'd share my experience with my recent CVT failure, what (probably) caused it, and how it was resolved thankfully under warranty. See TL;DR on the bottom if you don't want all the details (though the details shine a lot of light on what happened). Feel free to AMA if it's not already included in this post.

  1. Background info
    • 2018 Civic EX-T 1.5 with around 33,500 miles at time of failure
    • Performance bolt ons are as follows:
      • PRL 3" catted downpipe & frontpipe
      • AFE Takeda intake
      • 3" straight through (no mufflers or resonators) shop made catback exhaust
      • KTuner custom dyno tune targeting 24psi on the top end
    • My driving style: On weekends, for car events/meets, or just during awesome weather; sporty and aggressive. For the Monday-Friday 30 mile each way commute to work - very conservative on Eco mode.
  2. KTuner specific details
    • Early spool enabled, Improved spool II and Improved Throttle Responsiveness II.
    • On the fly maps:

    • Tune 1 is factory turbo responsiveness and factory Boost Target Ramp Rate. This tune is capped at 21psi (Eco mode is 17psi). This is what I use for the M-F commute and regular easy driving.
    • Tune 2 is Improved Turbo Responsiveness II, Boost Target Ramp Rate is Aggressive Ramp Rate II, and targets 24psi. This is what I use when I just want to feel the power, street race, etc. I use this map less than 15% of the time.
  3. So what happened?I pushed the limits (that I knew well about, thanks to this forum) on my CVT and paid the price.
    • Background: I was at a late night meet with at least 200 other cars in this industrial area of a city in my state (little to no risk of police shutting us down here). Everybody was having a great time, especially with the shenanigans. People 2 stepping, burnouts, street racing, you know how it goes. I decided to participate in a couple straight line street races against other cars in the Civic's class.
    • The first 2 races went just fine, I actually won both to my own surprise. The third one is where "it" happened.
    • I had traction control disabled (have good summer tires that don't lose traction even if floored from a dead stop), had map 2 on (the one targeting 24psi up top, aggressive ramp II, and turbo responsiveness II). Car was in "S". I flew off the line, and when I got up to around 5900rpm and the car was going to do the simulated shift point, I felt it lurch twice, then nothing. The pedal was to the floor, engine screaming, but no further movement. I let momentum bring me to the side of the road. I immediately knew the tranny went and my heart dropped. No check engine lights were present.
    • Before I had the car towed to a Honda dealer that was about 6 miles away, I returned the car to the stock tune with my KTuner v2 and unlocked it from the ECU while on the side of the road. It was Saturday-Sunday night so the dealership was closed. I dropped the key in the key drop, filled out the form, and called Monday.
    • The dealership verified transmission failure, and submitted the warranty request to "TechLine". They said that either a new transmission would show up the next day meaning the request was approved, or that they would get a call from Honda Engineering and would do an investigation first. Waiting those 24 hours for an answer was nerve wracking. I got a call the next morning, and low and behold a new transmission for me was delivered. No investigation was performed. I got my car back 3 days ago and it drives perfectly. See the below picture of the invoice I received after the service was done
Wn2eqmC.jpg

  1. Car now and going forward
    • I made the decision that though those functions in the tune are fun, I am going to pull back a good amount. I reduced the max PSI to 21, turned off early spool, and set Turbo Responsiveness and Boost Target Ramp Rate to "factory". This is a much more conservative tune and my hope is that the new CVT will last a lot longer than the original one. I feel the difference in the transmission driving with these new parameters. Before, the simulated shifts were very pronounced, especially when in the higher RPM band. It would even clunk when getting off the throttle up top. It doesn't do that anymore, and power delivery is much smoother and more "linear" feeling.

TL;DR

Was well aware of the CVT limits, pushed them anyway, then paid the price. Was doing some late night straight line street races at a meet. On the 3rd race, CVT failed. Custom dyno tune with KTuner, 24psi, early spool enabled, Turbo Responsiveness II and Aggressive Ramp Rate II. Honda dealer replaced the transmission under warranty. Moving forward I made my tune significantly more conservative. Reduced the max PSI to 21, turned off early spool, and set Turbo Responsiveness and Boost Target Ramp Rate to "factory".
 

Nessism

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There was no shafting of Honda. He didn't swap all the factory parts back onto his car to hide the fact he's modding. He appropriately reverted the tune back to stock, which is a procedure that should always be followed as you do not know if the dealer will need to reprogram as part of a repair.

Nowhere does he say he lied to the dealer about what happened. The dealer was straightforward with him that either Honda would send a new tranny or they would require an investigation.

Honda reserves the right to deny warranty if the failure was due to modifications done to the vehicle, bringing it out of specification. This does not mean they will always deny warranty.

You, the customer, should not make warranty decisions for the manufacturer. Let them do it.
He absolutely SHAFTED Honda. And he DID swap factory parts back onto his car in that the tune was removed to hide the reality of his mods, they just weren't visible from the outside.

Regarding Honda reserving the right to deny warranty if mods caused the problem, it's almost certain that they would have denied this claim had they know the TRUTH as to how it happened.
 

dallasjhawk

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He absolutely SHAFTED Honda. And he DID swap factory parts back onto his car in that the tune was removed to hide the reality of his mods, they just weren't visible from the outside.

Regarding Honda reserving the right to deny warranty if mods caused the problem, it's almost certain that they would have denied this claim had they know the TRUTH as to how it happened.
We still going on about this 2 years later lol? I didnt shaft anyone. I returned the tune to factory as I do for any service. My intake was still on the car, my hid's were still on the car. My wheels were still on the car. It never had a downpipe or any exhaust.

In the end, I got a new CVT FREE, sorry that hurts your feelings. Why you want to defend Honda so bad here amazes me.
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