Convince me to buy or not buy 2019 CTR. Am I making a dumb decision?

CivilciviC

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Offended? Nah. Everyone experiences the world differently, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But you're definitely in a small minority who feels the same about the CTR.

I'm truly wondering if there's something off about your car, straight from the factory. I was hellbent on buying a Subie myself, until I drove both and ended up with the CTR.
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tinyman392

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The WRX has been more fun regardless of season, just so happens it's winter now. The Mazda has dead center steering even with 140k on the odometer. All the videos I watched and articles I read about the CTR bragged about the great steering. Mine isn't great, maybe yours is, good for you. The WRX has a more usable power band in normal driving conditions which many agree with. More pull down low, less on top, opposite of the CTR. You may not like the power delivery of the WRX, I do. I'm hoping maybe with the IC and a custom tune it resolves some of the issues I have with the car so yea, "can't wait". If not then we'll part ways.
So are you the thread police here monitoring opinions making sure FK8 fanboys don't get offended? ;)
The CTR can definitely pull down low, the issue is if you're pushing too hard, the car won't do that for you. If the weather is bad, the car won't do that for you. If your tires aren't warmed up, the car won't do that for you. There is a lot required to get the power out of the CTR, but it definitely is up to the task; it takes a bit of a learning curve though. An intercooler won't actually help you here, neither will a HVI or exhaust as that might actually make the problem worse*. Spinning front wheels means you're using too much power, you can always dial back.

2017 Civic Type R:
  • 0-10: 0.9s
  • 0-20: 1.6s
  • 0-30: 2.3s
  • 0-40: 3.2s
  • 0-50: 4.2s
  • 0-60: 5.5s
  • 0-70: 7.3s
  • 0-80: 9.7s
  • 0-90: 12.3s
2014 Subaru WRX:
  • 0-10: 0.8s
  • 0-20: 1.6s
  • 0-30: 2.3s
  • 0-40: 3.1s
  • 0-50: 4.1s
  • 0-60: 5.3s
  • 0-70: 7.0s
  • 0-80: 9.4s
  • 0-90: 11.6
So usefulness in real world:
  • So, 0-10, 20, ..., 50 times will be useful for city driving if you're trying to push it in an urban environment since posted speed limits rarely exceed 50 and drivers rarely go above this. I really don't recommend doing this, but the times, and thus power is almost identical in this region.
  • 0-10, 20, ..., 60 times are useful in a suburban environment (not city/urban, but not rural) since they have speed limits up to around 50 MPH (with drivers generally going 5-10 MPH over. The times are still identical, they're putting down about the same power to the road.
  • 0-10, 20, ..., 70 times are going to be useful in a rural environment since 2-lane highways have speed limits excess of 55-60 MPH. Most drivers are going 5-10 over. These times are still very close to identical still in this situation.
  • 0-10, 20, ..., 90 is useful for an expressway environment. This is where the WRX looks to be faster than the Type R by 3-6 tenths of a second.
Note that these times are going to be done in two different environments with two different drivers. The WRX is the easier car to drive and will be more consistent among different drivers and environments since it's not entirely traction limited. The Type R will be traction limited and be very inconsistent among different drivers so the power one can produce out of an FK8 will vary wildly on top of the fact that the Type R's power already vary's wildly based on heat issues. That being said, the two cars, if driven properly (without spinning the tires) have about equal real-world power use. The WRX is easier to optimize said power use, the Type R has a strong learning curve.

*If you feel like the Type R can use more power in the midrange, then an intercooler might help. If you're already spinning the front wheels without an intercooler in this area, more power won't help you. Other mods like an HVI would probably make the low-range power worse as it pushes the power band later into the rev range to make more peak power.
 

CivilciviC

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I get the feeling that ExVTEC is throwing money at his car, but isn't really solving anything. After having Hondata already, I know a custom tune would be better... But I doubt it'll be a huge difference overall. Will squeezing an extra 10-20 hp fix things for him? I kind of doubt it. As mentioned, it then becomes a problem of effectively and continually putting that power down.

I can definitely understand the desire for AWD over FWD. And maybe that's just it. He tried the FWD, modded it, and still can't get the results he's hoping for... And that's ok. At least he knows this platform isn't ultimately for him.

Rather than spend a few thousand bucks more hoping to hit what he's after, it might be better to accept the platform for what it is and start making plans for getting into something else. It's likely money better spent.
 

Zeffy94

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There's nothing wrong with him wanting a WRX. The acceleration irks me too, but not enough to make me want to trade. I can see why he doesn't like it though. It's obvious. FWD will hamstring those sort of launches, and there's not really much you can do it about it other than live with it or move on to something else.

People can call it a downgrade if they want, but for him it might be an upgrade. It's all a matter of perspective.
 


ExVTEC

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I still have hope for the car and I do like it a lot. Ultimately it won't be any different than what most of us do anyway. We get a car, mod it (throw money at it) and eventually move on to something else. Just trying to be a little happier until that time comes. Maybe I'll get lucky and find that sweet spot as I'm not that far off I think. If not then I won't be the first to put parts in the member classifieds section.

I get the feeling that ExVTEC is throwing money at his car, but isn't really solving anything. After having Hondata already, I know a custom tune would be better... But I doubt it'll be a huge difference overall. Will squeezing an extra 10-20 hp fix things for him? I kind of doubt it. As mentioned, it then becomes a problem of effectively and continually putting that power down.

I can definitely understand the desire for AWD over FWD. And maybe that's just it. He tried the FWD, modded it, and still can't get the results he's hoping for... And that's ok. At least he knows this platform isn't ultimately for him.

Rather than spend a few thousand bucks more hoping to hit what he's after, it might be better to accept the platform for what it is and start making plans for getting into something else. It's likely money better spent.
 

boosted180sx

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what is the issue you have with the car? Is it the throttle response? is it the lack of traction when WOT in lower gears?
I'm trying to figure out what you mean by usable power band in normal driving conditions because this car has gobs of low - mid range torque which should make for a pretty easy drive around town.

Just genuinely curious if it's something that can be fixed by altering parameters. Mods you are going to install isn't going to drastically change the way the car feels.
 

ExVTEC

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The more I think it about I wonder if the parameters in the tune are maybe too conservative for my taste in 1st and 2nd gear. It's like a switch is flicked in 3rd gear and boom, power kicks in. No traction issues at all really.

The mods will be combined with a custom tune and hopefully get the feel I'm looking for.

I had seen a thread where someone mentioned something similar and they were told to copy and paste values for 3rd gear into 1st and 2nd. I have no clue how to do that so a custom tune is scheduled.

what is the issue you have with the car? Is it the throttle response? is it the lack of traction when WOT in lower gears?
I'm trying to figure out what you mean by usable power band in normal driving conditions because this car has gobs of low - mid range torque which should make for a pretty easy drive around town.

Just genuinely curious if it's something that can be fixed by altering parameters. Mods you are going to install isn't going to drastically change the way the car feels.
 

boosted180sx

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The more I think it about I wonder if the parameters in the tune are maybe too conservative for my taste in 1st and 2nd gear. It's like a switch is flicked in 3rd gear and boom, power kicks in. No traction issues at all really.

The mods will be combined with a custom tune and hopefully get the feel I'm looking for.

I had seen a thread where someone mentioned something similar and they were told to copy and paste values for 3rd gear into 1st and 2nd. I have no clue how to do that so a custom tune is scheduled.
That's probably the reason tbh. When you look at the power curve of the wrx and the ctr, it isn't that different down low.
I remember seeing your other post somewhere mentioning the wrx had better throttle response. If that's the case, you can tune your torque targets more aggressively in the lower throttle curve so it's targeting more torque at a lower throttle input giving you "better" throttle response.
 


ExVTEC

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Thanks for the info. I will be sure to mention this to the tuner. End of March can't come soon enough.

That's probably the reason tbh. When you look at the power curve of the wrx and the ctr, it isn't that different down low.
I remember seeing your other post somewhere mentioning the wrx had better throttle response. If that's the case, you can tune your torque targets more aggressively in the lower throttle curve so it's targeting more torque at a lower throttle input giving you "better" throttle response.
 

idragmazda

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The CTR can definitely pull down low, the issue is if you're pushing too hard, the car won't do that for you. If the weather is bad, the car won't do that for you. If your tires aren't warmed up, the car won't do that for you. There is a lot required to get the power out of the CTR, but it definitely is up to the task; it takes a bit of a learning curve though. An intercooler won't actually help you here, neither will a HVI or exhaust as that might actually make the problem worse*. Spinning front wheels means you're using too much power, you can always dial back.

2017 Civic Type R:
  • 0-10: 0.9s
  • 0-20: 1.6s
  • 0-30: 2.3s
  • 0-40: 3.2s
  • 0-50: 4.2s
  • 0-60: 5.5s
  • 0-70: 7.3s
  • 0-80: 9.7s
  • 0-90: 12.3s
2014 Subaru WRX:
  • 0-10: 0.8s
  • 0-20: 1.6s
  • 0-30: 2.3s
  • 0-40: 3.1s
  • 0-50: 4.1s
  • 0-60: 5.3s
  • 0-70: 7.0s
  • 0-80: 9.4s
  • 0-90: 11.6
So usefulness in real world:
  • So, 0-10, 20, ..., 50 times will be useful for city driving if you're trying to push it in an urban environment since posted speed limits rarely exceed 50 and drivers rarely go above this. I really don't recommend doing this, but the times, and thus power is almost identical in this region.
  • 0-10, 20, ..., 60 times are useful in a suburban environment (not city/urban, but not rural) since they have speed limits up to around 50 MPH (with drivers generally going 5-10 MPH over. The times are still identical, they're putting down about the same power to the road.
  • 0-10, 20, ..., 70 times are going to be useful in a rural environment since 2-lane highways have speed limits excess of 55-60 MPH. Most drivers are going 5-10 over. These times are still very close to identical still in this situation.
  • 0-10, 20, ..., 90 is useful for an expressway environment. This is where the WRX looks to be faster than the Type R by 3-6 tenths of a second.
Note that these times are going to be done in two different environments with two different drivers. The WRX is the easier car to drive and will be more consistent among different drivers and environments since it's not entirely traction limited. The Type R will be traction limited and be very inconsistent among different drivers so the power one can produce out of an FK8 will vary wildly on top of the fact that the Type R's power already vary's wildly based on heat issues. That being said, the two cars, if driven properly (without spinning the tires) have about equal real-world power use. The WRX is easier to optimize said power use, the Type R has a strong learning curve.

*If you feel like the Type R can use more power in the midrange, then an intercooler might help. If you're already spinning the front wheels without an intercooler in this area, more power won't help you. Other mods like an HVI would probably make the low-range power worse as it pushes the power band later into the rev range to make more peak power.
I just want to point out, in most driving conditions, you will not get a 0-60 time in the Type R in the mid 5 second range. You need to hit it PERFECTLY to get close to this.

This includes with wider, stickier rubber, and more power.
 

tinyman392

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I just want to point out, in most driving conditions, you will not get a 0-60 time in the Type R in the mid 5 second range. You need to hit it PERFECTLY to get close to this.

This includes with wider, stickier rubber, and more power.
Yes, you need to hit it perfectly to get that 0-60 time. The times above were on a stock car (so stock tires, rims, and powertrain). Like I said above, it's very difficult to learn how to launch the Type R properly, but if you do, it will provide a strong pull that may be comparable to the WRX. That was my major point there. For everyday driving ½, or even full second difference in 0-60 probably wouldn't be felt.
 

tinyman392

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I was set on adding a 2020 Type R to the stable...and then this news comes out :confused1:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a31135735/subaru-wrx-sti-confirmed-2022/

Love what Honda is making but if Subaru can bring this to the market for under $40k, Honda better start worrying.
C&D use Forbes as a source which is basing their stuff based on rumors. C&D estimates the pricing in the mid-30k region while Forbes says a sub-50k region (a nearly 10k difference in how they estimate the pricing will go). That being said, everything is a rumor for now. Though the STI will need at least 375-ish HP to be on the CTR's level (WHP-wise). Keep in mind that with an AWD platform, it's not uncommon to see 20% (or higher) powertrain loss vs 10% and 15% from FF and FR platforms, respectively. So that 375 HP number would result in a car with 300WHP while the 400HP model would have about 320WHP. The 415 (Mercedes) results in an expected 330WHP. It's possible it'll be underrated from factory like how the Type R most likely is (since it's making more power than expected from a 10% powertrain loss at the wheels).

That being said, I'd love a 400+HP STI; it needs 375 to be competitive or at least 350 to match the RS.
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