Civic Si vs Veloster N

RehabJP

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$24k MSRP for Si? That's a steal if you can find it.

The Active Exhaust on the N let's you make the exhaust quiet (no pops) for cruising, it's doing way more than piping in more or less sound from the speakers.

Not sure I get the logic of, "I bought an Si cause the Type R destroys the Veloster N."
I never said that is why I personally bought an Si. My point was if someone wanted a Honda and wanted a pure performance car then the Type R would be what you wanted which would smoke a Veloster which even the Performance package for an extra 6 grand and for that your getting in my opinion of course a lot more than the Veloster has to offer. I guess that does not really figure into this thread which is Si V. Veloster and the MSRP for a 2020 Si is 25,200 my bad still much cheaper than the N with he performance package
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RehabJP

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davemarco...

Detailed, wonderfully written reviews. Thumbs up. I actually came here to reply to RehabJP but was really impressed with your post.

RehabJP, I get it, we're are all Honda fanboys and the Si offers a great combo of mpgs, power, comfort and handling. But to suggest the Si is a much better vehicle than an N with a performance pack is a bit of an exaggeration IMO.

The car to compare the N to is a Type R. Using that criteria, yes, the R is the better vehicle. But give Hyundai/Biermann credit. The N is an amazing first entry into hot hatch territory and offers good value too.
Agreed... that I why I said if I would of spent close to 29K on a N with the Performance pack then I would spend the extra $$ to and get a Type R. I do not think the Veloster is crap. Its a solid car. I do not think it is the best value that's my opinion and not because I am a Honda Fan boy. I was very close to buying a Veloster until I test drove the Si and I liked what you got price to performance. I could of had 75 more horsepower but I would of had to compromise on other things that I was specifically looking for in a car. Others my see it differently.
 

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After my test drive of the N I definitely agree. It’s admirable of Hyundai to put performance before everything else, but I just can’t see myself daily driving it.
If I was 21 again I would probably be able to look past the cheap interior, but with my commute it was a serious deal-breaker.

I also test drive a GTI and I think it might be my top choice now. It has a healthy boost of performance over the Si and a very comfortable and practical interior, a bit bland though.
Yea I think I would put the GTI over the Veloster as well that was my second choice after I looked at all the budget sport options I also like the Suby WRX but I do not what to deal with the Boxer Engine. I know a lot of people love them but I am not a fan.
 

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I'd honestly go as far as to say that had Honda put a single mass flywheel in the SI like they were originally planning on doing (and given it the same kind of rev hang-less tuning that the R got), it would have been the perfect discount driver's car. Those two items really downgrade the experience in that car.
Yea you have a point there the Si could have been tuned better stock and also the single mass flywheel and no rev hang would have given the Si the overall win I think for budget minded daily driver sport. I still think it is a great car and fun to drive but if they would have brought it a little closer to the CTR would have really made it stand out as a compromise between all out performance and economy daily driver sport. I read that they could not push more that 205 HP stock because they want them to last but is it that they want more people to say I need more than 205 HP and flip the extra for the CTR. The Si has been at 205 Hp for awhile now even before the turbo when it was still VTEC.
 

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Yea you have a point there the Si could have been tuned better stock and also the single mass flywheel and no rev hang would have given the Si the overall win I think for budget minded daily driver sport. I still think it is a great car and fun to drive but if they would have brought it a little closer to the CTR would have really made it stand out as a compromise between all out performance and economy daily driver sport. I read that they could not push more that 205 HP stock because they want them to last but is it that they want more people to say I need more than 205 HP and flip the extra for the CTR. The Si has been at 205 Hp for awhile now even before the turbo when it was still VTEC.
I know that a lot of people have subscribed to the upsale theory - that Honda wanted to keep the Si's power down to push people towards the R. I continue to hold that making money on the sales of Type R's is a completely ancillary goal for Honda. The sole purpose of the Type R's existence is as a "halo car" - a rolling marketing machine. I wouldn't be surprised if their margins on them are fairly small, with production costs subsidized in part by the corporate marketing budget. Regardless though, the point is that they don't really have to upsell people to the R - it serves its purpose by existing in showrooms and on the pages of automotive magazines.

Honestly, I've watched the 1.5T aftermarket for years now, and I've genuinely come to believe that Honda kept it at 205 hp because that's all they could reliably get out of it at that price point. Honda has very strict failure rate limits that they adhere to for their engines, and in no universe can I envision them hitting those targets if they sold every Si with TSP Stage 1 levels of boost/timing. You might find the failure rates equivalent at 3 years, or maybe even 5. But at 10+ years, you're going to see that rate jump up in the higher powered cohort.

True, they could've just put much stronger internals into it and then cranked up the boost, but then they'd have lost the economies of scale leveraged by sharing the same internals as the mass produced L15B7 in the CR-V (since the SI engine would now be a separate, low volume SKU). Cost goes up, price of the car goes up, and suddenly the entire market positioning of the car changes. That's why my thinking is that power-wise, a stock Si is already about as powerful as it can be. And honestly, that's ok. There are lots of super powerful cars out there that are terrible "driver's cars". What the Si really needed was not more power - it needed a more precise clutch, a lightweight, single mass flywheel, and a stock tune with no rev hang. Those three alone would have made a stock Si 100x more fun to drive.
 


RehabJP

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I know that a lot of people have subscribed to the upsale theory - that Honda wanted to keep the Si's power down to push people towards the R. I continue to hold that making money on the sales of Type R's is a completely ancillary goal for Honda. The sole purpose of the Type R's existence is as a "halo car" - a rolling marketing machine. I wouldn't be surprised if their margins on them are fairly small, with production costs subsidized in part by the corporate marketing budget. Regardless though, the point is that they don't really have to upsell people to the R - it serves its purpose by existing in showrooms and on the pages of automotive magazines.

Honestly, I've watched the 1.5T aftermarket for years now, and I've genuinely come to believe that Honda kept it at 205 hp because that's all they could reliably get out of it at that price point. Honda has very strict failure rate limits that they adhere to for their engines, and in no universe can I envision them hitting those targets if they sold every Si with TSP Stage 1 levels of boost/timing. You might find the failure rates equivalent at 3 years, or maybe even 5. But at 10+ years, you're going to see that rate jump up in the higher powered cohort.

True, they could've just put much stronger internals into it and then cranked up the boost, but then they'd have lost the economies of scale leveraged by sharing the same internals as the mass produced L15B7 in the CR-V (since the SI engine would now be a separate, low volume SKU). Cost goes up, price of the car goes up, and suddenly the entire market positioning of the car changes. That's why my thinking is that power-wise, a stock Si is already about as powerful as it can be. And honestly, that's ok. There are lots of super powerful cars out there that are terrible "driver's cars". What the Si really needed was not more power - it needed a more precise clutch, a lightweight, single mass flywheel, and a stock tune with no rev hang. Those three alone would have made a stock Si 100x more fun to drive.
Interesting. I am new to Honda at least as an enthusiast but what you say Makes sense. If your in the market for a CTR your going to buy a CTR. You are probably going to the dealer with that in mind same as if you want a Mustang Cobra or a Corvette C8. You are not going to go to buy a CTR and drive home in an Si. I am sure plenty go to buy a Civic EX or LX or Accord and end up in an Si though. LOL. I think the Si does have enough power. Maybe a little more would not hurt but like you said there are other things that could have been done better to add to the experience other than just boosting raw power. Its not the fastest as far as top speed or raw horsepower and at some point Honda will have to address that I imagine if they want to stay competitive in the sub 30 grand sports car market since the Golf and the Veloster are already surpassing them and HondaSense and a LSD will only really add so much value. A single mass flywheel would have been really nice and with a better clutch would have really increased the driving experience for those looking for that spots car experience. Really 205 HP is perfect for a sporty daily driver thinking about it. Its not overkill but not underpowered and with the light weight chassis on the Civic it does feel like more.

Sadly is this going to be the best we get with the Si as far as "Spots Car on a Budget" with ever increasing emissions standards and the switch to hyper economical ICEs or straight up EVs will we ever see a Si with more than 205 HP though at least stock. I see why that 2000 Model Si sold for 50 grand now.... they do not make them like they used to.
 

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Hyundai keeps improving their models.

Honda Civic 10th gen Civic Si vs Veloster N Veloster N seats



The 2021 Veloster N, including models with the new N DCT, will arrive at US Hyundai dealers in October.


2021 VELOSTER N

  • New, available N Eight-Speed Wet Dual-Clutch Transmission
    • Steering-wheel-mounted paddle shifters
    • Thermal endurance capabilities meet sustained high-performance levels
    • Includes N Track Sense Shift with Launch Control
  • New standard N Light Sport Seats with Illuminated N Logo
    • Performance side bolsters and 4.4 lb. weight reduction
  • Performance Package equipment now standard on Veloster N
  • New, standard eight-inch display audio/navigation system
  • New, standard driver assistance features include: Forward Collision-avoidance Assist, Lane Following Assist, Lane Keeping Assist, Driver Attention Warning, Blind Spot Collision-Avoidance Assist and Rear Cross-traffic Collision Warning
  • New white exterior color replaces Chalk White exterior color (November production)
2021 VELOSTER (all non-N Models)

  • 2021 Veloster is not changed from the 2020 Veloster model
 

VictorMet7

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After a few months of a 2020 Civic Si ownership, i'm feeling the itch for a little bit more. I understand that the Veloster Turbo is a more comparable comparison, however a FBO Civic Si is very close to the price of a Veloster N.

MSRP for the Si is at $25,200
Ktuner or Hondata runs you 500-700
Cold air intake is 300-400
Exhaust systems are 800-1000
You could also include an intercooler upgrade, or dp/fp as well.

At this point we're just over $27k, which is the starting price of the Veloster N, and would likely put you at a comparable power level as well.
However, this is also a point where many people experience clutch slip, so there's another $1000-1500.

I think it's fair to say that from a practicality standpoint the Si has it beat, however the value proposition for performance seems incredible for Hyundai.

I think it's important to add the 10 year/ 100,000 mile powertrain warranty included with Hyundai as well.

What do you guys think?
interestig information
 

longthaitran91

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I know that a lot of people have subscribed to the upsale theory - that Honda wanted to keep the Si's power down to push people towards the R. I continue to hold that making money on the sales of Type R's is a completely ancillary goal for Honda. The sole purpose of the Type R's existence is as a "halo car" - a rolling marketing machine. I wouldn't be surprised if their margins on them are fairly small, with production costs subsidized in part by the corporate marketing budget. Regardless though, the point is that they don't really have to upsell people to the R - it serves its purpose by existing in showrooms and on the pages of automotive magazines.

Honestly, I've watched the 1.5T aftermarket for years now, and I've genuinely come to believe that Honda kept it at 205 hp because that's all they could reliably get out of it at that price point. Honda has very strict failure rate limits that they adhere to for their engines, and in no universe can I envision them hitting those targets if they sold every Si with TSP Stage 1 levels of boost/timing. You might find the failure rates equivalent at 3 years, or maybe even 5. But at 10+ years, you're going to see that rate jump up in the higher powered cohort.

True, they could've just put much stronger internals into it and then cranked up the boost, but then they'd have lost the economies of scale leveraged by sharing the same internals as the mass produced L15B7 in the CR-V (since the SI engine would now be a separate, low volume SKU). Cost goes up, price of the car goes up, and suddenly the entire market positioning of the car changes. That's why my thinking is that power-wise, a stock Si is already about as powerful as it can be. And honestly, that's ok. There are lots of super powerful cars out there that are terrible "driver's cars". What the Si really needed was not more power - it needed a more precise clutch, a lightweight, single mass flywheel, and a stock tune with no rev hang. Those three alone would have made a stock Si 100x more fun to drive.
One reason i see why rev is there other than emissions is because going from mechanical throttle to electronic throttle caused jerky behavior in manual cars at parking lot to neighborhood speeds. Automatics don’t have this issue. I’m guessing it was done to keep the car from jerking. I’m ktuned, I turn on rev hang when I leave and enter my neighborhood and shut it off when I’m on 45+mph roads. This video from engineering explained goes in more detail about it
 

skyliath

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One discouraging thing, about the Veloster N, is it's gas mileage.

For me, a vehicle is a long term relationship ... so, between gas mileage, and the interior experience feeling like a cheap plastic coffin, I went straight to the Honda Dealership!

That said ... I did enjoy driving the Veloster N ... but couldn't see paying that much for such a cheap interior, that made me feel like I was steering from inside a cave.
I didn't know that the Veloster is a gas guzzler. Thanks for sharing this. I am looking for a car to buy for my wife and the Veloster was one of my choices.
 


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One discouraging thing, about the Veloster N, is it's gas mileage.

For me, a vehicle is a long term relationship ... so, between gas mileage, and the interior experience feeling like a cheap plastic coffin, I went straight to the Honda Dealership!

That said ... I did enjoy driving the Veloster N ... but couldn't see paying that much for such a cheap interior, that made me feel like I was steering from inside a cave.
This interior doesn't look cheap, was it a 2020 you drove?

I drove a 2020 Elantra GT N-Line and the interior looked similar, and was nicer than my Civic.

Honda Civic 10th gen Civic Si vs Veloster N er-n-my20-js-0191-n:16-9?wid=1440&hei=810&qlt=85,0
 

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I know that the N is rated at 25 mpg ... and I tend to average about 33 mpg in my Si Coupe
 

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This interior doesn't look cheap, was it a 2020 you drove?

I drove a 2020 Elantra GT N-Line and the interior looked similar, and was nicer than my Civic.

er-n-my20-js-0191-n:16-9?wid=1440&hei=810&qlt=85,0.jpg
No ... I drove a '19.

I have heard that the 2020 N interior is nicer (at about a $2k price bump, if my memory serves me correctly)
 

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I didn't know that the Veloster is a gas guzzler. Thanks for sharing this. I am looking for a car to buy for my wife and the Veloster was one of my choices.
Fuelly says the N averages 25 mpg, just in line with the Type R at 24 mpg.
 

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No ... I drove a '19.

I have heard that the 2020 N interior is nicer (at about a $2k price bump, if my memory serves me correctly)
No, the 2020 was only $500 more and no changes I don't think - the cloth seats look good in that promo pic but look like a cheap rental in real pics, lol. Compared to the Type R that's probably a shock.

They need to improve the seats for 2021.
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