Civic Rear Trunk area gaps.

[Gruber]

Here is my classification of the 6 levels of "body gap" issues from most serious to least:


1. Panels or doors stick out or sink in from the car surface in the direction perpendicular to the surface.

2. A single gap is uneven so that it visibly varies in width when looking at one place along the gap.

3. Panels or doors are mounted so that car body lines that are supposed to be continuous are visibly broken.

4. Different gaps are parallel, but of different width on the same side of the car, while it seems like they should be the same (door front vs. rear gap, or trunk/hatch/hood left vs. right gap).

5. Corresponding left vs. right body side gaps are parallel, but of different width, which, however, can't be observed at the same time (driver vs. passenger side doors).

6. Gaps are perfectly aligned and even, but just wider than seems to be the standard.


All depends on the degree, but I generally find 1. and 2. unacceptable and would not buy the car or I would try to correct it. 3. depends strongly on the case. 4. is somewhat annoying. I generally care very little about levels 5 and 6.

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[CivicXI]

It seems the new Honda's have larger gaps than older models, but they still seem pretty even. My friend's moms 2020 CR-V is similar to my civic. Not sure why Honda would purposely design the gaps larger.

The larger u design the gaps, the more manufacturing tolerance the finished product can have while still passing QC.

Often when I design parts, I start off with say, a full assembled tolerance stack up of +/-0.06. Then a bunch of parts comes in slightly out of spec and they ask if we can just accept it so we don't have to do another round of first articles. So now we add another .02 to it. Then manufacturing says that it turns out to run the line at full speed, we need another .02. Then we find out that there's a variation between first and second shifts and they need another 0.02. Next thing u know, the original panel gap that might be 1/8" is now 1/4" just so QC can get the cars out the door to the customer.

 

[carlos969]

Classy solution. Hopefully nobody takes your advice.

Its actually good advice. This is exactly what team members on the door fit and body fit lines in assembly plants do, to fix any gaps that arn't in spec.

 

[AnotherJeni]

I doubt the assemblers can change the dimensions of the sheet metal parts with their bare hands!

They can try to equalize the gaps the best they can but they can't magically change the size of the parts to make the gaps smaller.

I was a door and lift gate fitter for Ford so I can't speak for Honda but I will tell you we are given a series of very specific tools that are used to "redirect" the parts in position. Plus a really good rubber mallot. You'll never have metal touch metal on doors, trunks, hoods. Higher end vehicles (our Lincoln models) was a tighter cleaner fit. We spent more time on each Lincoln to finesse a perfect, consistent even line and fit for all body lines. The less expensive Ford models, not so much... As long as they were straight, we were good. They leave the spacing for several reasons one being paint shop. Often times the vehicle will go through paint several time building layers upon layers of E-coat, primer, paint, pearl (if applicable) then clear coat. If one has too many problem areas, they might sand it down and send it back through... The body shells are on a chain conveyer and are dipped into a large vat of paint then on toward the ovens. I've seen vehicles come out with E-coat clear coated. How it bypassed the paint vat I'll never know. There's an inspector with a measuring device at the end of the paint line. If a unit has been through process too many times, and the paint is too "thick", he flags it. They know they won't get a good fit so they scrap it. (Google Fordite and you'll get an idea.)

So, no, we can't expand the metal to fit but I can pound on a spot of the frame until it lowers the door/lift gate/hood just enough to fill that gap a bit. We learn where all the sweet spots to make those doors move like butter.
Hope this answers some questions.

 

[carlos969]

I was a door and lift gate fitter for Ford so I can't speak for Honda but I will tell you we are given a series of very specific tools that are used to "redirect" the parts in position. Plus a really good rubber mallot. You'll never have metal touch metal on doors, trunks, hoods. Higher end vehicles (our Lincoln models) was a tighter cleaner fit. We spent more time on each Lincoln to finesse a perfect, consistent even line and fit for all body lines. The less expensive Ford models, not so much... As long as they were straight, we were good. They leave the spacing for several reasons one being paint shop. Often times the vehicle will go through paint several time building layers upon layers of E-coat, primer, paint, pearl (if applicable) then clear coat. If one has too many problem areas, they might sand it down and send it back through... The body shells are on a chain conveyer and are dipped into a large vat of paint then on toward the ovens. I've seen vehicles come out with E-coat clear coated. How it bypassed the paint vat I'll never know. There's an inspector with a measuring device at the end of the paint line. If a unit has been through process too many times, and the paint is too "thick", he flags it. They know they won't get a good fit so they scrap it. (Google Fordite and you'll get an idea.)

So, no, we can't expand the metal to fit but I can pound on a spot of the frame until it lowers the door/lift gate/hood just enough to fill that gap a bit. We learn where all the sweet spots to make those doors move like butter.
Hope this answers some questions.

Very good and acurate response. I work at a Lexus assembly plant and our specs are tighter than Toyota's. This is what those body fit tm's do all day long, is bending panels to get them in spec on the line.

 

[AnotherJeni]

Very good and acurate response. I work at a Lexus assembly plant and our specs are tighter than Toyota's. This is what those body fit tm's do all day long, is bending panels to get them in spec on the line.

Correct, that's what I did all day long for a few years. It was a decent job for the most part. You could tell when paint shop was having issues with a certain color on various days. Red always seemed "thicker" at certain times. High humidity in summer was always a hassle in the paint area. Then on another day, maybe the door install guys on the line were having issues. They rarely ever came down the line nice and clean and ready to roll off to greet the world.

I'm wondering what I would think of the gaps these others are talking about.... I could just walk over with my mallot and watch their chins hit the floor. ?

 

[LesAnanasNeParlentPas]

It's a cheap car. Bigger gaps equal easier assembly.

Doesn't make sense that Honda would design the gaps larger on the civic and even crv compared to the previous generations. at least most of the lines are decently even unlike what you would fine in American manufacturers.

 

[fjrman]

The plastic tail light assembly causes fit and finish problems for the Civic sedan. Everything has to fit around it. So there's no easy way to make small adjustments in the plastic bumper cover to close the gap between the cover and the sheet metal. You see many large unsightly asymmetrical gaps between the cover and the sheet metal.

 

[fjrman]

When you keep adding more and more content in inexpensive cars something has to give if you keep the price low and you make a profit.

Otherwise you'll be producing these cars at a loss and that can't be sustained.

I paid less than 18K for my new Civic LX. It's a cheap car but a better car than was available a few years earlier for a similar price.

I'm amazed at what you get for such a low price. If some of the fit and finish is lacking a bit I can shrug and say "it's a cheap but amazing car". No water leaks, not much wind noise, and it's reliable.

 

[LesAnanasNeParlentPas]

Still weird how the crv has the large gaps in the rear trunk area but the accord is pretty tight.

 

[CivicXI]

Doesn't make sense that Honda would design the gaps larger on the civic and even crv compared to the previous generations. at least most of the lines are decently even unlike what you would fine in American manufacturers.

I can tell you, this happens ALL the time. When you churn out 1 million cars a year and allowing a larger panel gap saves 5 minutes of tweaking per vehicle, that's 80k hours at a burden rate of $40/hr saves $3 million a year.

If you combine that with replacing screws with push clips. Taking a few thousandths (a piece of paper is .004") off the thickness of interior plastics. Etc etc. Suddenly you're looking at 3 million here, 5 million there, 2 million there and your next gen car saves $20 million a year vs. the previous car.

 

[Gruber]

I can tell you, this happens ALL the time. When you churn out 1 million cars a year and allowing a larger panel gap saves 5 minutes of tweaking per vehicle, that's 80k hours at a burden rate of $40/hr saves $3 million a year.

If you combine that with replacing screws with push clips. Taking a few thousandths (a piece of paper is .004") off the thickness of interior plastics. Etc etc. Suddenly you're looking at 3 million here, 5 million there, 2 million there and your next gen car saves $20 million a year vs. the previous car.

That's exactly how it works. Every $2 per car counts. The money saved will still not be huge in the relative sense, but plenty for annual bonuses for the executives.


In the case of a car like Honda Civic, it's also capitalizing on the R&D investment, technology reputation and the earned trust of the faithful customers, who will buy these cars even with wider gaps over many similar cars with smaller gaps, which are not Honda though.

In other words, you can't be perfect in everything, and at the same time competitive with other manufacturers of economy cars, who will cut corners too, but in different areas. For example, others may want to make up in fit and finish or posh interiors what they don"t have in the powertrain innovation/quality, reliability, features, brand recognition, resale value, etc.

 

[arpypat]

Resurrecting this thread.

I've had my car since it was new - nearly 3.5 years ago - and I'm just now realizing how bad the trunk gap is!

I can see one of the damn bolts for the rear bumper through the gap on the driver's side... Passenger side isn't as bad and the gap seems even when looking at it from above, so it doesn't seem like realigning would help much. Trunk/bumper were never removed before.