Can we talk about Breonna Taylor, the KY Police dept and how they completely Fubard this whole thing?

['19Sport6Man]

I think you might have some misconceptions about qualified immunity. That only means a cop can't be named individually in a civil suit for actions they took in the line of duty.

If Officer Smith gives you CPR, saving your life even, and breaks your rib, you can't sue him for breaking your rib. It's the same thing that applies to EMS, firefighters, etc. It doesn't mean Officer Smith can't be held criminally liable for breaking the law in the line of duty, including things like involuntary manslaughter (negligence) or voluntary manslaughter (intent), or that his department can't be sued civilly.

It's not qualified immunity protecting the cops in this situation. It's the fact they were legally cleared to conduct a no-knock + forced entry warrant, and that they were legally justified to return fire in self-defense in the execution of that warrant.

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

The gist of what I am saying remains clear.

My understanding of qualified immunity is the reason that cops are treated differently than every other citizen in the same situation. Your pivot to Good Samaritan type of immunity notwithstanding, I am talking about the much lower threshold that police have for using deadly force, without being held responsible, either criminally or civilly.

THIS is what has to be addressed, IMO, in order to quickly stop police from using military tactics on citizens - with specific regard to late night no-knock or quick-knock-before-busting-the-door-down type of raids.

I certainly understand the points about legislating this behavior away, but in the real world, holding the man with the battering ram responsible will go a long way towards limiting the situations these tactics are used in.

It is the ULTIMATE check and balance.

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[jimmyreal]

Curious where your mom went to school, as I am old enough to be your parent, and I certainly don't recall any school segregation, other than traditionally black historic colleges, which IIRC are that way by choice.

While racism will always exist (and it goes both ways), during my time in the military and work force from the late 80's, I have not seen any person of color being held back because of their color. It can easily be argued quite the contrary has been the norm.

NC didn't fully meet the requirements of Brown v Board of Education until the 71-72 school year. The year after my mom graduated HS. If you're that curious about NC and school desegregation feel free to Google the Pearsell plan.

I'm in my 19th year of service and if you didn't see it it's because you weren't looking for, or affected by, inequity. Your anecdotal experience doesn't trump the ridiculous # of studies that show, and even quantify, the racial inequities that still exist in both the public + private work sectors.

 

[jimmyreal]

I certainly understand the points about legislating this behavior away, but in the real world, holding the man with the battering ram responsible will go a long way towards limiting the situations these tactics are used in.

This country is based on rule of law. No law = no responsibility. I fail to see how it's possible to hold 'the man with the battering ram' responsible for not breaking the law.

 

[Hats_N_Hoodies]

What I was saying is that your pivot to race weakens your entire argument. Yes there IS a problem with the militarization of police forces, and the use of late night raid tactics - there are plenty of innocent people of ALL colors who have been victims of this (thinking of the white guy in Kansas City (IIRC) that answered the door after getting up from dinner, he was the victim of "swatting", and he was executed in his doorway by a police sniper who claimed he made a furtive movement....)

Curious where your mom went to school, as I am old enough to be your parent, and I certainly don't recall any school segregation, other than traditionally black historic colleges, which IIRC are that way by choice.

While racism will always exist (and it goes both ways), during my time in the military and work force from the late 80's, I have not seen any person of color being held back because of their color. It can easily be argued quite the contrary has been the norm.

Oh fantastic, the " I didn't see it so it doesn't exist mentality". Hard to argue with that!

Especially when you still had purposefully(not lawfully) segregated schools in the southern US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_segregation_in_the_Mississippi_Delta

https://data.postandcourier.com/saga/minimally-adequate/page/2

And even though segregated schools are not legally allowed to exist. There are quite a few southern schools that still have segregated proms. Which is disgusting. They don't do it because they want to, they do it because it ensures both groups can enjoy the evening safely.

 

['19Sport6Man]

NC didn't fully meet the requirements of Brown v Board of Education until the 71-72 school year. The year after my mom graduated HS. If you're that curious about NC and school desegregation feel free to Google the Pearsell plan.

I'm in my 19th year of service and if you didn't see it it's because you weren't looking for, or effected by, inequity. Your anecdotal experience doesn't trump the ridiculous # of studies that show, and even quantify, the racial inequities that still exist in both the public + private work sectors.

Interesting. Your mother had you in her early 40's it sounds.

And studies are often undertaken with a preordained conclusion in mind. My experience is "anecdotal", while no doubt the experience of those with whom you agree is anything but.

If you are intent on looking for anything, whether it be racism, or a trail of ants, you will find it.

THAT, IMO, is the problem. Everyone is conditioned to feel they are somehow a victim.

You sound like an intelligent guy - I'm going to guess you have risen to the pinnacle of your chosen profession in 19 years - E7 to E9? And yet you still choose to buy off on the institutional racism holding people back mantra.

 

['19Sport6Man]

This country is based on rule of law. No law = no responsibility. I fail to see how it's possible to hold 'the man with the battering ram' responsible for not breaking the law.

My point was clear.

Police are NOT held to the same standards that every other citizen is held to.

And human nature being what it is, that invites abuse.

The all too frequent carnage that results from late night raids on citizens is proof of that, with innocents frequently paying the price.

Look into the shooting of Daniel Shaver. The cop that executed him walked, with a lifetime pension for "PTSD".

 

[jimmyreal]

Interesting. Your mother had you in her early 40's it sounds.

And studies are often undertaken with a preordained conclusion in mind. My experience is "anecdotal", while no doubt the experience of those with whom you agree is anything but.

If you are intent on looking for anything, whether it be racism, or a trail of ants, you will find it.

THAT, IMO, is the problem. Everyone is conditioned to feel they are somehow a victim.

You sound like an intelligent guy - I'm going to guess you have risen to the pinnacle of your chosen profession in 19 years - E7 to E9? And yet you still choose to buy off on the institutional racism holding people back mantra.

Oh ffs, if you want the genealogy my ma was born in '52. '52 + 18 = '70. '83 - '52 = 31. '20 - '83 = 37 in Nov.

That's not how scientific studies work, that's not how they work at all.

6 in 7, 7 in 10. AGR = wait for folks to die for 8 or 9. I'm a leader in a diverse organization. It's my duty to enforce a command climate that doesn't tolerate racism or sexism. It's my duty to listen to, and learn from, the perspective of my subordinates.

Like I said, the inequity was all around you, you just weren't affected by it.

 

['19Sport6Man]

Like I said, the inequity was all around you, you just weren't effected by it.

AirForce senior enlisted at Pope?

And "scientific" studies in the social sciences are NOT the same as scientific studies as found in peer reviewed medical journals, etc. Sadly, that IS "the way they work", all too often.




If you think that people are NOT effected by a climate that values "diversity", OVER demonstrated performance, experience, and educational attainment, then you will never get it.

IMO, we are hijacking the OP.

If you wish to make this a strictly race based discussion, perhaps start another thread?

 

[jimmyreal]

Police are NOT held to the same standards that every other citizen is held to. And human nature being what it is, that invites abuse.

The all too frequent carnage that results from late night raids on citizens is proof of that, with innocents frequently paying the price. Look into the shooting of Daniel Shaver. The cop that executed him walked, with a lifetime pension for "PTSD".

I get your passion, man, and I share it. That doesn't change that no legal basis = no criminal charges. There are 2 elements that have to be proven to convict someone of a crime 1. the act and 2. the intent. I mean, I'm all ears, what would your argument be to the DA in this case?

 

[jimmyreal]

If you think that people are NOT effected by a climate that values "diversity", OVER demonstrated performance, experience, and educational attainment, then you will never get it.

I have nearly a decade of 360 assessments + command climate surveys that show I absolutely get it.

 

[WOPSiWOT]

I’m just here to watch @jimmyreal Rockstar.

 

[Hats_N_Hoodies]

Nothing like coming to a car forum and having politically charged nonsense shoved in your face. Take this crap to The dumpster fire that is Reddit.

I guess you are new to how most forums work. This is the off topic section where discussions like this are permitted.

There are two ways you could have found this thread. A) by entering the off topic section and B) this is one of the more active threads so it appeared in the list at top of Forum page.

If it was the latter, I suggest you consider not clicking on things that trigger you to avoid being upset.

If it was the prior, why go out of your way to be upset?

 

[Byron Sexton]

The original intent was to see if someone who had all the facts could explain to me how the Cops screwed this up so much. I believe I found what I sought.......*subzero from MK voice*

 

['19Sport6Man]

The original intent was to see if someone who had all the facts could explain to me how the Cops screwed this up so much. I believe I found what I sought.......*subzero from MK voice*

Thinking you pretty much called it correctly right there.

The cops screwed up - which really is not that uncommon in these type of no-knock or knock-and-kick-in-the-door type of middle of the night raids.

Simply put, showing up armed and armored up, locked and loaded, amped up, and forcing entry into someone's home in the dead of night when they are sleeping, often and PREDICTABLY has a negative outcome.

 

[0percentapr]

What I was saying is that your pivot to race weakens your entire argument. Yes there IS a problem with the militarization of police forces, and the use of late night raid tactics - there are plenty of innocent people of ALL colors who have been victims of this (thinking of the white guy in Kansas City (IIRC) that answered the door after getting up from dinner, he was the victim of "swatting", and he was executed in his doorway by a police sniper who claimed he made a furtive movement....)

Curious where your mom went to school, as I am old enough to be your parent, and I certainly don't recall any school segregation, other than traditionally black historic colleges, which IIRC are that way by choice.

While racism will always exist (and it goes both ways), during my time in the military and work force from the late 80's, I have not seen any person of color being held back because of their color. It can easily be argued quite the contrary has been the norm.

Historically black colleges aren't that way by choice, they're called historically black colleges because they were made in a time when black people weren't allowed to go to white colleges or discouraged to go to white colleges, that's why you can't make new historically black colleges anymore cause it doesn't make any sense. There are also other races going to historically black colleges these days.

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