C&D - Lightning lap 2018 : Civic Type R (With Video)

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Whe tested by sport auto on the ring with same tires the M2 and fk8 had the exact same time. This test was done with semi-professional drivers so it is a good comparison.

The testers also analyzed their data against the official Honda lap video and concluded that the Honda test car most likely had higher power. The corner speeds were almost the same but top speed in the straights was much higher on the Honda test car.



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What am I apologizing for? I think you're here apologizing for a 60k BMW that is not 25k better than a Type R.

I don't really care about times and the limited data they provide. I'm not a pro, you're not a pro, we're not maximizing anything around here. It's just a fact that the M2 is slower around the 'Ring if you look at official times. It's not rocket science - a M2 weighs 3600 lbs and a Type R weighs 3100 lbs. A tuned lighter car will corner better and being faster on the curves means you can make up time that you lose on the straights. A technical course with very little straightaway will neuter HP advantage. And a M2 costs a lot more and has much more expensive running costs. The M2 also has limited rear seating and limited hauling capacity compared to a Type R.

If we're taking value for money out of the equation, I guess we should all just get a McLaren.

You could, in the interest of science, run a M2 with a cage and tires and see what kind of improvement you see. Otherwise, I'm just seeing sour grapes about a FF production car that costs 20k less and is faster around the 'Ring. M2 owners reaaaaaaaally hate that. I get spammed with so much wrong info when I point that out - people literally google and latch on to the first "bad" bit of info they think they find, most of which are wild claims by randos on the internet. Someone sent me a list of changes from the FK2 to the FK8 and said that was proof that the FK8 was a heavily modified track car and Honda was cheating, lol. When I pointed out that was a list of production changes, they did not offer an apology, just doubled down on, "they did something." I'll just take the world record run at face value.


A non-owner, yes. But, a car enthusiast no less. A Honda apologist myself who will always believe the ITR was the last and best NA FWD car.




Agreed. However, having tracked RWD, AWD, and FWD platforms, the FWD platform is by far the most forgiving and easiest to drive “fast”. Truly confidence inspiring.




Great assumptions about what I/we M2 owners care about. I’d equate that the owners of both cars are after the same thing - a balanced machine that punches above its class. Also, not sure where/why you are so positive the M2 loses ground against the CTR in corners. Nurburgring is one track and I’ve already stated the questionable aspects of the run. Honda should do what Nissan did for the GTR and take pics of at least the tires. Why not share photos of the cage as well? Was it welded in? What was the real weight of the car?




See the above. Ring time does not mean end-all in performance, but does tend to suit cars that are more stable at high speeds. Regardless as counting as a ‘production’ car, still undisclosed modifications done to the car.


The M2C is also 140lbs heavier than the OG M2. M2C has better top end pull than the OG M2 thanks to the S55 as opposed to the dates N55.




Okay. The variables here are vast. I don’t think you can make these broad assumptions. But, we can play lap time games. Randy Pobst ran a 1:44.22 and Martin Tomczyk ran a 1:40.88 at Laguna Seca. Same track (different days). Two pro drivers. Real production cars. Tough nuts.


Anyway, love the car magazine racing with you. You clearly love your car which is great. I think the CTR is a fantastic car and if I could put one in my stable and still be fiscally responsible I would. These posts are pointed because of the nature and tone of your posts. So, please, I implore you, open your eyes and be realistic. But, gush away as the car is a great one for years to come.
 
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Whe tested by sport auto on the ring with same tires the M2 and fk8 had the exact same time. This test was done with semi-professional drivers so it is a good comparison.

The testers also analyzed their data against the official Honda lap video and concluded that the Honda test car most likely had higher power. The corner speeds were almost the same but top speed in the straights was much higher on the Honda test car.
Just curious - what kind of power were they saying the Honda was putting down? Did the M2 and FK8 run stock tires or the exact same tires as each other?

Although I've heard that Sport Auto is heavily biased towards german manufacturers, a tie in that scenario is still impressive for the Type R.
 
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What am I apologizing for? I think you're here apologizing for a 60k BMW that is not 25k better than a Type R.

I don't really care about times and the limited data they provide. I'm not a pro, you're not a pro, we're not maximizing anything around here. It's just a fact that the M2 is slower around the 'Ring if you look at official times. It's not my fault you get so triggered by that. It's not rocket science - a M2 weighs 3600 lbs and a Type R weighs 3100 lbs. A tuned lighter car will corner better and being faster on the curves means you can make up time that you lose on the straights. A technical course with very little straightaway will neuter HP advantage. And a M2 costs an extra 20k and has much more expensive running costs. Only 20k to go 2 seconds faster around VIR and 15 seconds slower around the 'Ring? Where do I sign?

If we're taking value for money out of the equation, I guess I should just get a McLaren.

You could, in the interest of science, run a M2 with a cage and tires and see what kind of improvement you see. Otherwise, I'm just seeing sour grapes about a FF production car that costs 20k less and is faster around the 'Ring. You M2 owners reaaaaaaaally hate that. I swear, I get spammed with so much wrong info when I point that out - people literally google and latch on to the first "bad" bit of info they think they find, most of which are wild claims by randos on the internet. Someone sent me a list of changes from the FK2 to the FK8 and said that was proof that the FK8 was a heavily modified track car and Honda was cheating, lol. When I pointed out that was a list of production changes, they did not offer an apology, just doubled down on, "they did something"

If you go read some BMW threads about the time, that's all you'll see over and over - "Honda must have cheated! Audi/VW/everyone else cheated on diesel emissions, therefore Honda must be cheating at this!!! And anyways the Type R is so fugly I'd walk before I'd drive that!" Yeah, that's not how that works. Let me know when you have proof.
I’d drive one. I’m not salty, really, at all. You didn’t read my post (re I like FWD. I like the CTR, I think it’s fantastic). I’m not dissing your car. I’m happy with my purchase. Your happy with yours. I don’t care about the ‘Ring time. What I do care about is how much weight YOU specifically place in it given some unknown variables and then touting it as being superior to XYZ. You’re dense.

And to comment, Laguna Seca is a technical course with minimal straights. That’s why I brought it into discussion (again you didn’t read my post, or you chose to ignore it). Nurburgring has got some long straights and long sweeping turns. The OG M2 actually has a poor top end.

Also FYI to make sure to keep you honest since you’re complaining that others are googling. The OG M2 MT/DCT was 3454/3509lbs. Add about 140lbs for the M2C.

Side note. Lots of manufacturers got salty about the GTR’s ring time (claiming cheating) and even Porsche with their professional drivers couldn’t replicate the time. Nissan then offered them driving school. Kinda funny.
 
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So many pointed comments directed towards me from non-owners. I think you guys are just jelly - of course I'm going to gush about the Type R on a Type R forum.

Amateur drivers are amateurs for a reason. They don't know how to wring out the last bit of performance out of a car, they're unlikely to shift and drive with the laser like consistency a pro can bring to the equation.

I don't know why so many M2 people hang out here. Yeah, the M2 has 365-400 hp compared to 306 from the Honda. It's going to win 0-60 and in a straight line. It loses ground to the Type R on corners. You all are so touchy about your much more expensive cars that are slower around the Nurburgring. Like a lot slower.

You can cry about a roll cage (for safety) and tires all you want to, it still counts as a production FF world record. Let me know when a M2 with tires (even though the stock tires on a M2 are already superior to a Type R's tires) and a roll cage puts down a time even close to the Type R record with tires and a safety cage. The M2 comp has 40 more horsepower and bigger brakes than the M2 and all that means a 4 second faster time than a M2 around the 'Ring at 7:54.

A M2 runs the 'Ring at 7:58 - that's 15 seconds slower than a Type R, which runs it at 7:43 or 463 seconds. That margin is about 3% of the time, compared to the 1% margin on the C&D Test. Less margin means confounding variables like poor driving and weather and track conditions play a larger role.
The « ring » track is also almost 3 times lomger than the track used for the lightning lap. That explains your percentage difference
 
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I’d drive one. I’m not salty, really, at all. You didn’t read my post (re I like FWD. I like the CTR, I think it’s fantastic). I’m not dissing your car. I’m happy with my purchase. Your happy with yours. I don’t care about the ‘Ring time. What I do care about is how much weight YOU specifically place in it given some unknown variables and then touting it as being superior to XYZ. You’re dense.

And to comment, Laguna Seca is a technical course with minimal straights. That’s why I brought it into discussion (again you didn’t read my post, or you chose to ignore it). Nurburgring has got some long straights and long sweeping turns. The OG M2 actually has a poor top end.

Also FYI to make sure to keep you honest since you’re complaining that others are googling. The OG M2 MT/DCT was 3454/3509lbs. Add about 140lbs for the M2C.

Side note. Lots of manufacturers got salty about the GTR’s ring time (claiming cheating) and even Porsche with their professional drivers couldn’t replicate the time. Nissan then offered them driving school. Kinda funny.
I'm dense? Nice, bringing personal insults into this. I'm done with this. I've already pointed out the M2 has more HP and is faster in straights. You're just being salty about a published time. You can point out other times until you're blue in the face but the 'Ring is where the M2 loses. Period. The M2 is more expensive. Period.

A base FK8 is technically 3042 pounds but I rounded to not be so pedantic. The M2 Comp is 3600 pounds and any form of M2 is a pig in comparison to the Type R, no matter how you slice it.
 
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I'm dense? Nice, bringing personal insults into this. I'm done with this. I've already pointed out the M2 has more HP and is faster in straights. You're just being salty about a published time. You can point out other times until you're blue in the face but the 'Ring is where the M2 loses. Period. The M2 is more expensive. Period.

A base FK8 is technically 3042 pounds but I rounded to not be so pedantic. The M2 Comp is 3600 pounds and any form of M2 is a pig in comparison to the Type R, no matter how you slice it.
It’s okay to bow out. You are dense because you still didn’t read my post. Don’t get butt hurt about being called dense. Not even an insult, just an observation bud.

Edit/Sidenote: I had to look because I remember seeing some flagrant posts from you in the past. Pot calling kettle black, but you’ve hurled your fair share of insults at others on this forum. Stop displaying fanboyism and realize that there are other excellent platforms out there.
 
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It’s okay to bow out. You are dense because you still didn’t read my post. Don’t get butt hurt about being called dense. Not even an insult, just an observation bud.

Edit/Sidenote: I had to look because I remember seeing some flagrant posts from you in the past. Pot calling kettle black, but you’ve hurled your fair share of insults at others on this forum. Stop displaying fanboyism and realize that there are other excellent platforms out there.
blah blah blah

Not taking any weak internet bait, have fun in your slower M2 on the 'Ring.
 
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blah blah blah

Not taking any weak internet bait, have fun in your slower M2 on the 'Ring.
It’s not bait, bud. I have YET to put down the CTR. You’re still bent out of shape, and yet so blinded that you cannot concede the positives to other drive-trains or cars. Not just the M2.

The CTR is amazing. And, for the record once again, I like the way it looks and I’d drive one. Period.

But I will give you this parting gift unless you choose to return. I will take a gander that the M2 is on average faster on most, if not all, road courses against the CTR. Save, your God, the ‘Ring.

Can we be friends now?
 
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Can we be friends now?
Yes. Although the word you're looking for is obtuse - I don't have to engage with every one of your points, but that doesn't mean I didn't understand them (dense). I don't ever hate on cars to owners in real life - that's just lame. Everyone has a special spot in their heart for their hunk of junk and every car has something positive that can be said about it. I would not have minded a Focus RS I think - if the Type R wasn't on the market, I'd probably swing for one of those. If gas wasn't so expensive and poised to go higher, I'd have picked up a V8 monster of some sort. I like the way german cars drive too, but that comes at a cost.

I'll continue to defend the CTR as the value of the century though and I'll gleefully point out where it punches above it's weight. It seats 4 adults and hauls a ton of crap! And it puts down the times it does on tracks! It's my daily, I'm almost 3k miles in and yeah I do look for excuses to take it for a spin. I love driving it and I absolutely think it's special at 35k - most people just don't know.
 
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Yes. Although the word you're looking for is obtuse - I don't have to engage with every one of your points, but that doesn't mean I didn't understand them (dense). I don't ever hate on cars to owners in real life - that's just lame. Everyone has a special spot in their heart for their hunk of junk and every car has something positive that can be said about it. I would not have minded a Focus RS I think - if the Type R wasn't on the market, I'd probably swing for one of those. If gas wasn't so expensive and poised to go higher, I'd have picked up a V8 monster of some sort. I like the way german cars drive too, but that comes at a cost.

I'll continue to defend the CTR as the value of the century though and I'll gleefully point out where it punches above it's weight. It seats 4 adults and hauls a ton of crap! And it puts down the times it does on tracks! It's my daily, I'm almost 3k miles in and yeah I do look for excuses to take it for a spin. I love driving it and I absolutely think it's special at 35k - most people just don't know.
No need to really defend the CTR, it’s an awesome car that will continue to shame cars many times its value. Also, having owned an RS, the CTR is the superior car and you made the right choice. The head gasket issue (such a pain in the ass to fix with American ford mechanics trying to fix a German built engine) and the ability to overheat the RDU truly scar the car. Regardless, the CTR consistently laps tracks faster than the RS.

The RS is better in inclement weather. That’s about it.

The true loser in this vehicle segment is the overpriced STi Type RA. Dated technology with bandaids on the engine and chassis. As a former ‘15 STi owner as well, I had higher hopes for this car.
 
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Yes. Although the word you're looking for is obtuse - I don't have to engage with every one of your points, but that doesn't mean I didn't understand them (dense). I don't ever hate on cars to owners in real life - that's just lame. Everyone has a special spot in their heart for their hunk of junk and every car has something positive that can be said about it. I would not have minded a Focus RS I think - if the Type R wasn't on the market, I'd probably swing for one of those. If gas wasn't so expensive and poised to go higher, I'd have picked up a V8 monster of some sort. I like the way german cars drive too, but that comes at a cost.

I'll continue to defend the CTR as the value of the century though and I'll gleefully point out where it punches above it's weight. It seats 4 adults and hauls a ton of crap! And it puts down the times it does on tracks! It's my daily, I'm almost 3k miles in and yeah I do look for excuses to take it for a spin. I love driving it and I absolutely think it's special at 35k - most people just don't know.
Just stumbled across this thread. Sorry for bringing back from the dead.

You have got to be delusional if you are comparing the CTR to the M2. Don't get me wrong, i am as big of a CTR fanboi as they come but the M2 has been regarded as the best driving BMW since the E46 M3 and one of the greatest BMWs ever made. Mind you, this is not my opinion. This is from countless publications and different media over many different countries. A car doesn't have to have the fastest ring time to be an amazing car. Does the ITR or the BMW 1M have great ring times? No. The truth is you will NEVER run the CTR thru the ring in 7:43 (if that figure turns out to be true altho seems very suspect), and even if you did, driving a properly balanced RWD car around a track is a league above driving a very well tuned FWD. Ive had my fair share of experience with different platforms. But despite the ITR being the best FWD ever built, my "twitchy rear-end" S2k, and or my "underpowered" miata was farrrr more enjoyable to drive than my ITR. Not even comparable.

It seems like you like magazine racing. So let's do it. Forget the Ring time for now. Let's take some more easily accessible tracks so there is a bigger sample size. At the willow springs and laguna seca raceway where the Pros have posted laptimes in both the CTR and the M2, the M2 turns faster laptimes in the hands of pros. But this is not the important part. The important part is that at these tracks, some amateurs and semi pro drivers have turned in laptimes that are in the same neighborhood as the pros. So what does that mean? it means that those laptimes have some level of merit to them, since lots of different sources are turning in similar laptimes. However, even semi pros have had difficulty getting even close to the ring time that Honda achieved in the CTR. Not even CLOSE. Fishy? yes. But we give them the benefit of the doubt because fan boys only bring the Ring argument of the ctr when they feel like they have nothing else to brag about.

Keep in mind that i own neither the M2 or the CTR. I have however driven both about the same amount being that someone close to me owns both and we like to take them both out and swap cars multiple times during each session. I am ALSO in the market for a CTR. I think the CTR is like you said the greatest sporty car bargain in a very long time. It punches above its weight, is one of the best driving cars you can buy for the money right now. I am NOT in the market for an M2. I have a bigger bias towards the CTR and i STILL think your arguments are retarded.

As an enthusiast, you gotta give credit where credit is due. Is the M2 20k dollars better than the CTR? I personally don't know. But it's definitely the better driving car, regardless of laptimes.
 

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The Civic Type R ring car was not stock. End of story. It's a nice time but the car had a stripped interior, different tires and roll cage and who knows what other changes Honda isn't telling us about. The ring times are nice and all for bragging rights but they aren't sanctioned and manufactures can do whatever they want. Are we really naive enough to believe that manufacturers only cheat on emissions testing and covering defects?
 

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