BRZ trade in for Type R

tinyman392

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At least he replied with something. You just slid in for an insult and no substance. That’s ok, it shows what level of intelligence we are dealing with.

So, then there are a lot of cars running fwd setups in racing, I get it @tinyman392. Too numerous to count in fact. Call me a fool again but I will select a rwd or awd for racing purposes like I said in the beginning. I like to go against the grain I guess.
There is no issue saying that you'll prefer a FR and AWD vehicle for track purposes, but discounting FF vehicles and claiming that they are at a full disadvantage is factually incorrect (as we've gone over already). I saw it said before, but it needs to be said again, each platform has its inherent pros and cons:
  • FF vehicles tend to understeer and put more pressure on the front tires of the car since they have to deal with acceleration, braking, and cornering forces all at once. Other drive trains may split the load differently having acceleration and braking on the rear axle (FR and MR) while others will have less acceleration stress on the front axle (AWD). Torque vectoring on the rear wheels requires the use of brakes (results in loss of power technically). Weight transfer works against the cars drivetrain since the weight shifts to the non-driven axle but can keep the car stable during cornering. The advantages you gain from it are weight savings (1 less drive shaft) and powertrain loss gains (no long driveshaft = less power loss). The power loss from an FF car would be about 10% vs 15 or 20% from an FR and AWD vehicle, respectively.
  • FR cars have the ability to oversteer easier and pressure the tires a little more evenly using the fronts for braking and cornering and the rears for acceleration and braking. The weight transfer upon acceleration works in the drivetrain's advantage since it shifts to the driven axles, though it's not better than MR vehicles; under cornering if the rears have broken loose, this would also cause a snap oversteer. Their disadvantages come with the added weight of a driveshaft to get to the rear wheels as well as the power loss from said drive shaft (15% loss vs 10% from FF and MR). That additional weight will also affect cornering speeds. Snap oversteer is possible with some FR cars' designs, but less likely. Torque vectoring on the front axle requires the use of brakes which results in a loss of power (technically).
  • AWD vehicles tend to understeer but are able to balance out the traction between the front and rears much easier. Torque vectoring on AWD vehicles becomes magic as it can distribute power where it needs and wants without any additional loss of power by using the brakes. In terms of acceleration, it doesn't need to worry about weight transfer because of AWD. Their disadvantages follow with FR cars with the added weight of a driveshaft (or two) which incurs a power loss. The additional weight also affects cornering speeds. An additional power loss is seen from the fact that the mechanism to send power to all 4 wheels also robs it of additional power. AWD systems tend to lose about 20% of their power in comparison to 10% (FF and MR) and 15% (FR).
  • MR vehicles tend to oversteer but balance the traction between the front and rear wheels like an FR car would (fronts deal with brakes and steering, rears deal with brakes and acceleration). Like FF cars, they incur the least amount of powertrain loss due to the lack of a long drive shaft spanning the length of the car which means 10% loss vs 15 or 20% (FR and AWD, respectively). The lack of a drive shaft does decrease weight and can help in aiding cornering as well and they also tend to have a better overall weight distribution. Major disadvantages of an MR car would be snap oversteer which is commonly accredited to MR cars (some are notorious for it) as well as the fact that torque vectoring on the front axle requires the use of the brakes.
  • Adding a hybrid system to any of the undriven axles give the advantages of AWD to any of the vehicles without the inherent powertrain loss (+5-10% loss) you'd get from that layout. However, the added hybrid system does add weight which is a disadvantage you'd gain from making such a move, though it could be argued that the gain in power offsets it.
There is no free lunch here, there is no best layout. Simply claiming one powertrain is the worst is really an ignorant statement to make. Each one has it's advantages and disadvantages associated with it. The goal at the end of the day is to learn the advantages and disadvantages of your car and use them to the best of your ability and learn to drive them. A good driver should have no issue driving a vehicle of any drivetrain to their fullest potential; I must admit though, I'm probably not a good driver.
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FlexRex

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@tinyman392 ..so there is no best now? They all get trophies?

Jokes aside, no serious competitor will chose a fwd over a rwd setup given all other things being equal. (Hypothetical scenario) We know my pick for clear winner, but whats your pick, they are all equal in the end? This is a discussion of physics in context of racing not power transfer thru drivetrain or personal preference to driving style.

There are some lightly disabled people who compete at a national or Olympic stage. It’s not impossible to overcome some deficits, but why would I choose to start with one? So you can make a fwd competitive but I could do the same with a rwd car and a lot less energy consumed cuz I don’t have to overcome the main deficit that I want all 3 (steering, breaking and accelerating) done thru 2 front wheels. That’s just one and in my opinion huge problem. You can solve that problem only indirectly with fwd setup or directly by getting a rwd setup.

So no one is discounting you in a fwd, I just think there’s smarter ways or more efficient ways around a track.

I do understand i am on a fwd forum, and that’s the main issue here.
 
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tinyman392

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@tinyman392 ..so there is no best now? They all get trophies?

Jokes aside, no serious competitor will chose a fwd over a rwd setup given all other things being equal. (Hypothetical scenario)

We know my pick for clear winner, but whats your pick, they are all equal in the end?
That was my point all along, there is no best and claiming there is simply doesn't make sense to do as they each have their advantages and disadvantages. The saying no serious competitor would choose a FF over an FR is also probably false.

As for my choice, it depends on the application:
  • If I want to have a more relaxing drive around a track, IE I'm not gunning for a fast hot lap, rather driving to just enjoy driving for the sake of driving, I do have a preference for a car that has a slight understeer vs one that does oversteer. The choice there would be FF or AWD as they both possess this quality to them. The FF car putting equal power to the wheels would be lighter and thus easier to corner with so that would be the choice for that scenario.
  • If I want to do a hot lap and care about my total lap time, I would go with an MR car since it kind of has some advantages from FF (powertrain loss) and those from FR (weight transfer under acceleration). It would be a lot more difficult to drive fast around a track, but the payoff would be worth it
  • If I wanted to go to a drag strip it would either be an MR car (if the rear tires could handle all of the motors power) do to its lighter weight, advantage of weight distribution over the rear axle, and powertrain loss (well lack of). There's a reason why the new Vette puts down a sub 3s 0-60 with a <500HP motor. If I couldn't find something that could hook nicely, AWD it is.
  • If I wanted to go do drifty stuff I'd grab an FR car since you can break the rears quite easily (due to weight distribution) and rear wheel drive so I could force it to drift a lot easier.
But again, I reiterate, no single drivetrain takes all the advantages. There are plenty of race cars that are FF and plenty of drivers who wouldn't trade them for a different car. There are many time attack cars based on FF platforms to take advantage of the power loss (lack of) that they have. There are many time attack cars that are FR, AWD, and MR for different reasons pertaining to their strengths.
 

FlexRex

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I see.. the pros and cons cancel each other out. In your head.

In mine things are clear. Or it’s viceversa, either way man since I can’t believe that we are having this discussion I’m gonna bow down and say you are right. It’s all the same.

Hey maybe one of these days an F1 team switches to fwd when circumstances are just right for it, cuz apparently there are circumstances when fwd is advantageous in racing. Can’t wait.
 


Chee_hu

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Late to the party, but I, too, sold my '13 BRZ as soon as I found my '17 CTR. I don't miss the BRZ one bit, as the R does pretty much everything better in my opinion.
 

FlexRex

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Honda choosing to make the Type R FWD and the performance it brings really cancels out any argument you have against FWD to be honest.
I guess. Honda civic must be the beacon of performance, not an entry level car.

I keep forgetting i am on a civic forum so fwd is the best solution rather than the simplest, cheapest and easiest to drive by the masses.
 

R MODE

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I wasn't attempting to buy a race car when I bought my R. I succeeded in buying an all around great car that should I want to track it will do a fantastic job. The other car I seriously considered was a Lotus Elise, but it's highly impractical. If MR wasn't the best set up for racing we would not see that configuration in Formula 1. But I wasn't attempting to buy a Formula 1 car.

At 63 years old I am now driving the best car I've ever owned, and I've owned plenty.

I win!
 

boosted180sx

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it also depends on the power levels we are dealing with.
The higher you go in HP, the more FWD becomes the limiting factor. But at 300 hp, meh.
 

Jwolf

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Late to the party, but I, too, sold my '13 BRZ as soon as I found my '17 CTR. I don't miss the BRZ one bit, as the R does pretty much everything better in my opinion.
Does your CTR hand brake turn better than your BRZ? I THINK NOT.

Does your CTR hoon like Ken Block in the winter? THINK AGAIN.

For these above reasons alone, I think you should sell your CTR and get a FI BRZ.

BRZ is better. I win.
 


R MODE

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Does your CTR hand brake turn better than your BRZ? I THINK NOT.

Does your CTR hoon like Ken Block in the winter? THINK AGAIN.

For these above reasons alone, I think you should sell your CTR and get a FI BRZ.

BRZ is better. I win.

Are you enjoying your BRZ?
 

Jwolf

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Chee_hu

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Does your CTR hand brake turn better than your BRZ? I THINK NOT.

Does your CTR hoon like Ken Block in the winter? THINK AGAIN.

For these above reasons alone, I think you should sell your CTR and get a FI BRZ.

BRZ is better. I win.
No, thank you. I'll gladly pass. I can think of other fun things than hand brake turning a car or fanboying Ken Block.
 

krees

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This thread is comical. All I'm seeing is layout preference which is fine but not fact of anything. OP: the type r is a more capable car than the brz, stock for stock.
 

Jwolf

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No, thank you. I'll gladly pass. I can think of other fun things than hand brake turning a car or fanboying Ken Block.
Apparently images don't work very well on this forum, so I shall do it myself.


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