Analyzing Hondata's basemaps

kefi

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There's a lot of people wondering 'does this basemap work for me if I have X and Y but not Z', including myself, so I went and compared the major US FK8 basemaps from Hondata to see exactly what they changed so I can better understand what these parts are needing.

I've found that it's mostly incremental, the majority of changes are in the base 91 octane tune.

91 octane vs stock (+34hp/+39tq)

  • Increased torque request in sport/R maps in 3rd-6th gear >= 69% TPS. Max 480 from 425 stock. Also notably, at 100% TPS torque request will be 480 regardless of RPM, unlike stock where it will ramp up at lower RPMs.
  • Torque limiting tables set to 600 across the board, from stock values 358-481. Essentially made to not be used unless something goes really wrong. I believe Hondata posted somewhere saying using this table to limit torque can be choppy.
  • +0.75 degree advance to all non-VTEC ignition maps (i.e. during spool)
  • Boost cut increased from 2.86 to 4 (this appears only in the compare window, it's part of the increased limits mod rather than a value you can set yourself)
  • Turbo max ratio (PA) rescaled, max from 3.03 to 3.7
  • Turbo max ratio (temp) rescaled, max from 3.6 to 3.9
  • Air charge limits set to 245-200 (stock values appear to be placeholders, no stock aircharge limit?)
  • VTEC intake cam 6500-7000rpm increase by 4 to 6 degrees
  • Spool intake cam increase by 5 degrees across the board
  • Minimum lambda rescaled to mostly 14.7, minimum from 10.29 stock to 11.47
  • Target lambda is almost exactly the same except slightly leaner at max airC/RPM
  • Knock retard step reduced by 0.75 degrees in some spots
From there, the changes are incremental and minor.

Catless downpipe: ~5% lower aircharge and various changes to intake/exhaust cams.
High flow cat downpipe: advance ignition by 2.25 degrees >= 130 air charge
Downpipe with intercooler: advance ignition by 0.75-1.50 degrees >= 130 air charge, increase air charge limit ~5%

Note that this is presented as a tree.
93 octane: advance ignition by 2.25 degrees >= 130 air charge, with 0.75-1.50 degrees additional advance over 4500rpm/190 airC, netting +14hp/33tq
Downpipe: ~5% lower aircharge and various changes to intake/exhaust cams.
Downpipe with intercooler: advance ignition by 2.25 degrees >= 170 air charge, increase air charge limit ~5%
PRL downpipe/PRL intercooler: reduce IAT2 ratio compensation by 50%, increase PA/temp max ratio by 0.5, reduce knock retard step by 0.75 degrees
100 octane: advance ignition by 1.50 degrees >= 130 air charge, increase torque request to 504, reduce knock retard step by 0.75 degrees, increase max turbo ratio by 1, +26hp/15tq over 93 octane​

So, things to take away from this:

  • The base 91 octane map barely changes ignition from stock and doesn't at all under VTEC. It gains power through more boost, better spooling through slight cam changes, and much safer AFRs (stock can go as low as 10.29!).
  • Adding a downpipe by itself commands a lower cylinder filling (air charge) and has cam changes to help (I think) with spooling. There's no change to ignition or boost limits in either 91 or 93 octane.
  • On 91 octane, you get more ignition advance with a high flow cat than with the catless downpipe+intercooler tune, but no ignition advance at all with the catless downpipe tune?
  • Upgrading to 93 octane nets you +14hp/33tq simply by advancing ignition by 2.25 degrees at 130% aircharge and above, with a little more at the top. Nothing else is changed.
  • Downpipe w/ intercooler adds 0.75-1.50 degrees more advance with 93 octane than with 91 octane.
  • The 93 octane downpipe+intercooler tune doubles the ignition advance from 91 to 93 octane above 170% aircharge. However, the downpipe cam changes are reverted and air charge is now higher instead of lower.
  • The PRL tune slightly raises the boost ratio limits, and reduces the effect of high (40-60C) IAT2s. This is major in climates like Florida. It also slightly reduces knock retard.
  • The 100 octane tune of course advances ignition, but not as much, relying more on increasing boost.
  • Every ignition change Hondata's tuner makes (with the exception of the base 91 octane only advancing the non-VTEC maps) is across all ignition maps equally. They also recommend you do this in their tuning guide.

I was hoping maybe someone else could expand on *why* those cam changes are made for the downpipe and why they're subsequently removed once an intercooler is put on.

There's also some weirdness in the 91 octane tunes, i.e. how there's no ignition advance for a catless downpipe but there is for a high flow cat, and how the high flow cat tune has more overall advance than the downpipe+intercooler tune.

I'm also not sure whether the downpipe+intercooler tunes are meant to be high flow, catless, or both.



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This is great information. I did a stock equivalent map vs 91 basemap on the dyno and figured they upped the boost and some other behind the scene things I wouldn't understand. Definitely nice to know what's actually going on in the background. Video link.

So it sounds like adding a downpipe and intercooler wouldn't really hurt the car but it wouldn't get the full potential out of the mods?
 
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kefi

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Really quickly analyzed the 91 octane maps too and found some weirdness with the downpipe tunes. Updated main post.

This is great information. I did a stock equivalent map vs 91 basemap on the dyno and figured they upped the boost and some other behind the scene things I wouldn't understand. Definitely nice to know what's actually going on in the background. Video link.

So it sounds like adding a downpipe and intercooler wouldn't really hurt the car but it wouldn't get the full potential out of the mods?
It's been shown that adding parts will do almost nothing without a tune to go with it, although I assume that's primarily from the greatly decreased boost limits than anything.

You wouldn't hurt the car, at most you'd have slightly reduced performance and fuel economy. The Bosch ECU is ridiculously smart and automatically compensates for all kinds of shit.
 
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Really quickly analyzed the 91 octane maps too and found some weirdness with the downpipe tunes. Updated main post.



It's been shown that adding parts will do almost nothing without a tune to go with it, although I assume that's primarily from the greatly decreased boost limits than anything.

You wouldn't hurt the car, at most you'd have slightly reduced performance and fuel economy. The Bosch ECU is ridiculously smart and automatically compensates for all kinds of shit.
Awesome. Coming from the Subaru world, adding any part, you'll need a tune or it'll blow up. This is good to know. Thanks again.
 
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kefi

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Awesome. Coming from the Subaru world, adding any part, you'll need a tune or it'll blow up. This is good to know. Thanks again.
The regular Honda ECU works entirely different to the Bosch ECU in our Type Rs, hell even the Accord we share an engine with has the Honda ECU and not our Bosch. You can read more here: https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/index.html?fk2_fk2_notes.htm

The TL;DR is that our ECU has a mathematical model of the engine that starts with the torque request map (one for each gear and drive mode) corresponding to your throttle position and current RPM. From there it determines how much air it needs to put in the cylinders (air charge) to achieve that torque and how to get that air in there based on temperature, ambient pressure, and various other sensors.

If it needs more boost to achieve a certain air charge because the IATs are high, it'll command more boost up to the limits set. Cam advance, ignition advance, and AFR are based on current air charge and RPM.

To put it into a list, but not exhaustively, the ecu goes:
1. How much torque is requested based on pedal/RPM? Make sure it's below the torque limits.
2. How much air charge do we theoretically need for that torque? Make sure it's below the air charge limits. This is the main calculation, how many mgs of air we need in those cylinders to make a big enough boom for that much torque.
3. How high is IAT2 (temperature at MAF sensor)? Scale the PA ratio table based on how high it is.
This is what causes a large majority of power loss in high heat, i.e. Florida summer. It is also majorly reduced with the PRL tune.
upload_2020-1-9_12-32-15.png
vs
upload_2020-1-9_12-33-25.png

4. How much manifold pressure do we need to achieve that air charge? Make sure the ratio of atmospheric to boost is capped to the values set in the PA/temp ratio tables, whichever is lower.
5. Calculate final boost target that is safely limited. Where should the wastegate actuator/throttle plate be to achieve this manifold pressure as quickly as possible?
6. What's our ideal fuel to air ratio at this air charge/RPM?
7. How much cam and ignition advance should we have for our current air charge at this RPM?

So now you've got your desired manifold pressure, throttle plate position, wastegate position, cam advance, ignition advance, and AFR. Everything you need, all based on the air charge calculated from your throttle position, gear, drive mode, and RPM and further modified by temperatures and other sensors. There's other shit like EGT reduction, knock retard, etc that will also come into play.

As commonly said, the best way to think of our engine is as an air pump... but even moreso in the case of the FK2/FK8. The ECU is trying to figure out how many actual mgs of air it needs to make the torque you want. It's not just the physics of it, it's literally how the calculations are made.

We don't go by just boost pressure as cold air is denser and fills more of the cylinder, so you go by air charge instead. Pretty much everything is tuned around the current air charge and RPM. There are no boost tables, only boost limiting tables, because the boost is dynamically calculated by so many factors. Anything over 100% air charge is under boost.

As a result of this difference, it's in some ways easier to tune but also makes it hard to find someone who will actually know what they're doing. I'm personally just trying to learn everything I can so I can tune it myself.
 
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eXstasy

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Is there a basemap for Intercooler only? How about catback only while retaining the OEM downpipe? If so, what are the differences?

Trying to determine if it's worthwhile to get Hondata with the combination of mods I will have. Thanks!
 

AdamD19DFK8

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Is there a basemap for Intercooler only? How about catback only while retaining the OEM downpipe? If so, what are the differences?

Trying to determine if it's worthwhile to get Hondata with the combination of mods I will have. Thanks!
Exhaust won't need any tuning under ~400hp

It's very worthwhile to get Hondata or Ktuner as parts alone won't do a thing power wise.
 

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3. How high is IAT2 (temperature after intercooler)? Scale the PA ratio table based on how high it is.
This is what causes a large majority of power loss in high heat, i.e. Florida summer. It is also majorly reduced with the PRL tune.
upload_2020-1-9_12-32-15.png
vs
upload_2020-1-9_12-33-25.png
the IAT2 is at the MAF. The car uses intake temps for that table. That's why a good intake is a necessity.

Is there a basemap for Intercooler only? How about catback only while retaining the OEM downpipe? If so, what are the differences?

Trying to determine if it's worthwhile to get Hondata with the combination of mods I will have. Thanks!
hondata is worth it even if you have no mods. A catback will not need any changes to the calibration.
 

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omar0123

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Im on a 91 octane with injen intercooler and in the extra mod box i picked injen intake.
 

alpinefd

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thanks for the detailed comparison. It seems like with the torque request type of ecu, tuning will be relatively easy on stock turbo and cams. Once you go big turbo and big cams, better make sure your tuner is up to speed on how to set this up correctly.

On a side note, just of curiosity, is hondata/bosch ecu using closed loop boost control with PID? Is there any settings that can be changed for the boost control wg solenoid PID. This would be critical for those who are going big turbos later.

in regards to the bolt on tunes. I'm wondering if it's better to go higher boost and stock ignition timing, or more timing and less boost increase.
I wonder which would induce the knock limit first on 91 octane or 100 octane.
 

omar0123

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I just came from the dyno today and i have to say those hondata Base maps are very good and reliable at 91 octane with upgraded intercooler and intake , i had 336 to the wheel with no nock
, after the custom tune i ended up with 376 and 374tq on a dynojet, also had the chance to see a 2018 type r same color tuned at 93 with downpipe front pipe and exhaust oem intercooler only got 368 365tq , my mods are injen intercooler prl front pipe ,injen evo intake and oem exhuast and i got more power out of mine than he did , also my tuner got me to drive and hit a couple of pases on the street While he checked there were no knocks on reall world street pulls , happy with the outcome im not even full FBO.
 
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