ACC warning

[Gruber]

I haven't yet seen in this thread any description of glitches or malfunctions. All seems to work about as expected.

The system has limitations. They are described in the manual. If any of the listed conditions happen, "the system may automatically shut off and the ACC indicator will come on". It also says that the limitations and conditions described in the manual are only "some examples" and there may be other conditions.

One of the listed conditions is "when the speed difference between your vehicle and a vehicle in front of you is significantly large."
It also says that the system is not intended for stop and go heavy traffic and roads other than highways and freeways. But people insist on using it at such conditions, because it "seems to work."
A "roadway [that] has merging, split or crossing lines" is also a limitation for LKAS.

Anyone who has any idea of what's technologically possible today with the sensors and the AI that can be used today in cars (in particular cars in this price range) will be rather amazed with what these systems can do in the CivicX than with what they can't do. There are no self-driving cars today in any real sense for any money (despite what Google and other propaganda might say; M.Elon says by the end of next year). Btw. ACC with LSF and LKAS is not self-driving and is not advertised as anything even close to it.

Maybe it would be more convenient if the system didn't shut off at these limiting conditions and require restart of the car, but it is apparently a "safety feature" to cool down those drivers who bought into the science fiction of a self-driving car and keep hitting the limits.

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[Hughie1033]

Its a glitch in the system. Restarting the car is the ONLY way to clear the indicators. I can tell you how to replicate the glitch if you really want to read more and try it your self. Otherwise, it is what it is. Restart your car.

Here are a couple ways to replicate the error:

Using Automatic Cruise Control (ACC) if another car pulls in front of you faster than the car can react and it detects an impending accident and you are NOT breaking in time for it to be happy, it will cancel the ACC and the system will crash resulting in the error messages on your panel. My guess is, this is what was happening during your drive, someone pulled into your radar's field of vision and you approached too fast without breaking enough to make the system happy.

Another way Ive found to replicate this error is a little more complicated. Imagine driving on the freeway in the slow lane. You have ACC on and Lane Keep Assist (LKS). Your slow lane is due to merge into the adjacent left lane. At some point in time the lane you are currently driving in will be larger than a standard size lane, because the two are merging together, a warning will pop telling you you're out of lane, except your not the system just doesnt realize the lanes are merging together. At this point, if there is another car in front of you, the system will crash and all the error messages that you just saw will pop up on the screen. This is the most annoying one as it requires you to pull off the freeway, onto the shoulder, turn off the car and turn it back on. Otherwise, you're stuck driving the thing without ACC or LKS.

A third way Ive found to replicate this is, again, driving in the slow lane of a freeway. Youre in full ACC and LKS. Traffic from surface streets are rising up and merging onto the freeway into your lane. Pretty standard practice for a freeway. If, for what ever reason, you approach the car boarding the freeway too fast (haven't quite figured out the speed threshold) the system will again crash requiring you to restart your car.

Happens mine too occasionally, figured it was a s/w glitch because it seemed to happen in similar conditions each time, so nice to get some confirmation. Hopefully Honda will come up with a s/w fix in the near future.

 

[frontlinegeek]

It also says that the system is not intended for stop and go heavy traffic and roads other than highways and freeways.

This statement is incorrect. One of the acceptable methods of use is for traffic crawling. It is in the manual.

So ya. All these drivers aides are neat and I bought them because I like techie things but I did not do it thinking it was going to be perfect. The outcome, however, has been FAR less than perfect.

I don't know if it is because of where the radar is located or if it is too small. I don't know if it is because of instead of two stereo mated cameras at the corners of the A pillars, the choice of one mono camera in the center. I don't know if it is poor software. I don't know if it is nervous lawyers getting in the way. What I DO know is that courtesy of my driving experience with the system and what keeps happening to Tesla cars and Uber self driving cars, this tech is FAR from properly ready. It feels extremely rushed to market.

 

[Ataricade]

Ha, crap.......

It’s that “garage door opener safety feature”, they don’t want to choke a idiot hanging his head out the window or possibly a poor dog. Do you have tinted windows ?

No and it’s a problem that comes and goes seems depending on the temperature and of course if it’s raining it works but I think that’s because it’s lubricating the channel. It must be snagging or binding up a little bit now and then which is causing the voltage spike that reverses the window

 

[Gruber]

This statement is incorrect. One of the acceptable methods of use is for traffic crawling. It is in the manual.

So ya. All these drivers aides are neat and I bought them because I like techie things but I did not do it thinking it was going to be perfect. The outcome, however, has been FAR less than perfect.

I don't know if it is because of where the radar is located or if it is too small. I don't know if it is because of instead of two stereo mated cameras at the corners of the A pillars, the choice of one mono camera in the center. I don't know if it is poor software. I don't know if it is nervous lawyers getting in the way. What I DO know is that courtesy of my driving experience with the system and what keeps happening to Tesla cars and Uber self driving cars, this tech is FAR from properly ready. It feels extremely rushed to market.

Well, so we differ. For the price of the system, it far exceeds my expectations. Surprisingly to me, it can actually sometimes be useful, beyond just play gadget, and I did not expect that.

Less than perfect compared to what? Your imagination? Tell me the specific consumer car make and model with automation that works much better than Honda, that's currently on the market for sale and you have experience with as a base for your opinion.

People don't realize that to have it work better (but still far from perfect) you need to have in the car more than "20 cameras, seven lasers, a GPS, radar and lidar". And trained service technicians in every dealership to repair it. Do you want to pay for it? I don't.

It is obvious that the technology of "self driving cars doesn't yet exist. But the ACC/LKAS on the Civic has very little to do with it. Here are media quotes on Uber "self driving cars" (allegedly Google is more ahead):

"Uber’s robotic vehicle project was not living up to expectations months before a self-driving car operated by the company struck and killed a woman in Tempe, Ariz. As of March, Uber was struggling to meet its target of 13 miles per “intervention” , [...] but not permitted to speak publicly about it."

"The cars themselves were packed with around 20 cameras, seven lasers, a GPS, radar and lidar, a technology that measures the distance reached by outgoing lasers so cars can “see” and interpret the action around them."

"Pittsburgh, PA is the only place in the US where Uber can put its self-driving cars on public roads. Where the company goes from there remains to be seen. "
"Should Uber resume self-driving testing, one of the areas it's focused on is in minimizing motion sickness in automated vehicles."

"Uber seemed to suggest that it wants to prevent individuals from owning self-driving cars in urban environments to better keep track of emissions and adhere to regulations."

https://www.techradar.com/news/uber-self-driving-cars
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/technology/uber-self-driving-cars-arizona.html

 

[Charley-TX]

ACC/LKAS works relatively well in the civic.
Lane keep would work better is road markings would be standardized and actually visible.
Who will pay to have the road stripes repainted fresh every year so lane keep will work?

 

[AndyAndromeda-AUS]

ACC/LKAS works relatively well in the civic.
Lane keep would work better is road markings would be standardized and actually visible.
Who will pay to have the road stripes repainted fresh every year so lane keep will work?

Tax paying citizens.....

That's generally how it works.

Highways near me got newly painting lines winning.

 

[frontlinegeek]

Well, so we differ. For the price of the system, it far exceeds my expectations. Surprisingly to me, it can actually sometimes be useful, beyond just play gadget, and I did not expect that.

That is fine. That fits into the realm of experiential opinion. I can't argue you on that.

Less than perfect compared to what? Your imagination? Tell me the specific consumer car make and model with automation that works much better than Honda, that's currently on the market for sale and you have experience with as a base for your opinion.

OK, now you are just being a snot. I am a software developer and systems analyst (For decades) and I can tell you that even just on the software side, there are a LOT of lazy "sharp edges" that should not be out there on a mass market system. I say this because it is exceedingly likely that the same software suite is powering all of the Honda Sensing installs on all their cars. I have driven and been driven in cars with proximity sensors and 360 degree functionality and I can well say that they have issues as well (Ford and Nissan). What I don't like is that there is no way to not get these systems on upper trim cars or no way to specifically or selectively disable certain features with some form of macro/driving mode. The few things you can disable require you to use separate buttons and also require you to press them either quick or long press. To say nothing of the fact that I am pissed off that Honda made the traction control button NOT FULLY disable the system. I live in Canada. Half off still means only half more of a chance to get moving in snow even if you have winter tires (Which I do).

People don't realize that to have it work better (but still far from perfect) you need to have in the car more than "20 cameras, seven lasers, a GPS, radar and lidar". And trained service technicians in every dealership to repair it. Do you want to pay for it? I don't.

Almost none of this is true. You can far more appropriately place the radar sensor (Perhaps have two?) and change to stereo COLOR cameras in the A pillars instead of one mono/mono that is in the center. (I get that the wipers keep it clean but that is a lazy design and for the paralax distances that a driver would need, having the two cameras even just on the center unit as far apart as possible should be enough. And as for GPS, that is a joke. The cost on the chip is so low now and the time and position data that is available from it means that they should be in a LOT more things than just phones. They should be in cars, clocks, TVs, you name it. There is little to no excuse for ever having to set a clock in the 21st century.

It is obvious that the technology of "self driving cars doesn't yet exist. But the ACC/LKAS on the Civic has very little to do with it.

Nope. It has a lot to do with it. It is Honda setting itself up conservatively and legally safely to prepare to compete with the likes of Nissan and its new semi-autonomous driving mode. Honda simply sells it under the auspices of a drivers aide. Because their products are used in winter regions, there is no way they will say it is semi-autonomous as once I had snow, the only thing that worked was the ACC. Everything else was nerfed from all the white. Users are not too bright and if they use the wrong term in a manual, you get what is happening with the Tesla cars. Idiots that think it is the 23rd century as opposed to 2018.


Here are media quotes on Uber "self driving cars" (allegedly Google is more ahead):

"Uber’s robotic vehicle project was not living up to expectations months before a self-driving car operated by the company struck and killed a woman in Tempe, Ariz. As of March, Uber was struggling to meet its target of 13 miles per “intervention” , [...] but not permitted to speak publicly about it."

Crap programming. Straight and simple. Humans navigate their cars with two mark I eyeballs. Had it been a situation where a human could have seen the person at the distances that the tech in that car clearly could, a properly trained human would know to slow down at least a little so that if the pedestrian did something unpredictable, then there would be a better chance to avoid the worst if something unexpected did happen. The Uber car was just simply programmed to drive the posted speed limit and react starting from that point. Nothing on the road means just keep going the same speed. That is a massively lazy algorithm. It should have at the VERY least, seen the pedestrian and prestaged the brakes. Something that interestingly, the Honda system does try to do so points there.

"The cars themselves were packed with around 20 cameras, seven lasers, a GPS, radar and lidar, a technology that measures the distance reached by outgoing lasers so cars can “see” and interpret the action around them."

Nope. All foolishness. Software was the #1 issue but not the only one. When driving at night, the one thing that is an issue for humans is the lack of night vision. Where were the thermal cameras? All of this tech and these closet monkey engineers that likely don't even drive or drive that much are over thinking the problem of making a car act for the human driver. And if there were thermals, then we go right back to software issues. The "brain" should be watching for human shaped things and prepare to react in advance.

ACC/LKAS works relatively well in the civic.
Lane keep would work better is road markings would be standardized and actually visible.
Who will pay to have the road stripes repainted fresh every year so lane keep will work?

You know what is funny? The system will work if the shoulder of a country road is sufficiently of a different color than the road surface. And of course, the center line is painted properly. But yes, the painted lines or lack thereof is indeed an issue for most of these systems but only so long as they lack stereo color/infrared camera systems. With that, you can then program the system to be able to determine if you are on a road surface and also where your car is in relation to what should be your lane even if there are no lines.

The biggest cost on a lot of this is the man bours to be out in the field testing and changing things in the field and then testing them again. The hardware sensors are ready and so is the computing horsepower/price ratio. There is a serious lack of programming going on with all the companies that implement any of these features. Just go watch the episode of The Grand Tour where Jeremy Clarkson drives a Model X. He admits back in studio that the car was rather unpredictable with its aides. And that is a $200,000 car... Sooooo... Where is all the cost really being sunk???

 

[Green82]

Speaking of that on my 2018 Si sometimes when I close my window using the auto feature it’ll go almost up to the top and then bounce off an imaginary object and then go right back down lol.

I have the same problem with my 2017 hatchback

 

[Gruber]

The "brain" should be watching for human shaped things and prepare to react in advance.

You know what is funny? The system will work if the shoulder of a country road is sufficiently of a different color than the road surface. And of course, the center line is painted properly. But yes, the painted lines or lack thereof is indeed an issue for most of these systems but only so long as they lack stereo color/infrared camera systems. With that, you can then program the system to be able to determine if you are on a road surface and also where your car is in relation to what should be your lane even if there are no lines.

The biggest cost on a lot of this is the man bours to be out in the field testing and changing things in the field and then testing them again. The hardware sensors are ready and so is the computing horsepower/price ratio. There is a serious lack of programming going on with all the companies that implement any of these features. Just go watch the episode of The Grand Tour where Jeremy Clarkson drives a Model X. He admits back in studio that the car was rather unpredictable with its aides. And that is a $200,000 car... Sooooo... Where is all the cost really being sunk???

They say the man with a hammer sees every problem as a nail. You think Uber or Google or whatever mainly have a problem with incompetent lazy programmers? Maybe you could help, but in reality it's not just programming logic (although at this stage it sure is buggy too) but mostly AI issues, and also imperfect sensors and too weak computers that can be put on a car.

"Watching for human shaped things" in darkness is easy to say for a human. No computer+ sensor has the recognition and coordination abilities of human eye+brain combo. Currently, defeating the distorted blurry letters of the "I'm not a computer " login tests is a topic of a paper in "Science" (one of the most selective journals). There is only about thirty letters and numbers but it takes top Ph. D. AI researchers, a big computer, and most importantly, a large stored database of learned examples to hack it. AI relies mostly on huge learned databases (like "expert systems"). Just a gigantic smart algorithm won't cut it. Try to program and build a robot that can ride a bicycle using two eye-cameras, (completely impossible today, not even close) or even any kind of sensors. But a kid can do it, including tricks.

No camera today can even focus fast and reliably like a human eye unless it's a very wide angle lens and a small sensor. If it is a wide angle/ small sensor, distant objects become small, pixelated and noisy. No purely optical system currently can determine distance with the required reliability. Hence radar. It takes computing power to analyze in real time high resolution images. Infrared is even more noisy and blurry, has less dynamic range and is subject to superposing images of other bright emitting objects (like car engines, hot pavement, etc.)

I guess the irrational exuberance about automatic vehicles was created between the computer programmers who didn't quite see what a can of worms this really is, and the businessmen, who would use any pretext to attract new investors. The hugest problem with self-driving cars is that it is total failure if it works just fine in 99% of situations. While for "drivers aids" this would be quite a decent system.

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