4 point harness for track days or more seat security

wstaab

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4 point harness for track days or more seat security that does not require a harness bar that restricts back seat access. Schroth's Quick Fit Pro use the rear seat seat belt fittings for the shoulder harness and lap belts attach to the front seat belt fittings. Red release button is reguired for street use by DOT.
Honda Civic 10th gen 4 point harness for track days or more seat security IMG_20200616_133607

Honda Civic 10th gen 4 point harness for track days or more seat security IMG_20200616_133638
 

ayau

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DOT legal does not mean this is safer than factory safety equipment during an accident. Whenever you move away from the factory safety equipment, which has been heavily tested, you may be increasing the risk of an injury during an accident.

With that being said, Schroth recommends this to be used with a HANS device to reduce neck injuries. I'm only adding this info because there are people who will just buy this without realizing they've increased their risk of being injured.

See potential risks in the video below:
 
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wstaab

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Hans compatible, not required. In order to use3, 4, 5, or 6 point harness in a vehicle in the US on public roads it must have a red release button. Normal race harnesses do not have a red release button or lever. Schroth's Quick Fit Pro is not a race harness. It is used to hold you more securely in your seat than a standard 3 point harness.
Honda Civic 10th gen 4 point harness for track days or more seat security IMG_20200202_141545
 

willskiGT

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No anti-sub belt(s), no go. I believe they have an option to add them, but don't know where the anchor point would be.

On top of that, you should not be running any harness without a HANS device. In a big crash, your chance of injury will be much higher than with a standard, 3 point belt.

Don't see the point of this. Either use the regular belts and tighten them down before your track session or go with a proper 5/6 point setup and a HANS device.
 

roflitzjinno

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Personally would never use a 4 point. IDC what safety they claim. No submarine harness no go for me.

Used CG locks in the past for 3 point seat belts in the S2000 and helps tons.

 


Draxaan

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Personally would never use a 4 point. IDC what safety they claim. No submarine harness no go for me.

Used CG locks in the past for 3 point seat belts in the S2000 and helps tons.
Agreed here. Unfortunately, the CG Lock has been discontinued (can't find it anywhere!).
 

willskiGT

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To reiterate what I (and others) have said, here is a video produced by Schroth on these 4 point Quick Fit belts:



A couple of things to note:

1. They claim these belts prevent submarining. Look at where the dummy's shoulders start (slightly above top of backrest) and look at where they are 0.1s into the crash. That is an enormous amount of submarining under high G loading and means broken ribs or internal organ damage.

2. I don't know what sort of impact this is supposed to simulate (speeds or G forces), but without a HANS device, the driver (dummy) would have suffered severe head and neck injuries. Think basal skull fracture.

I would stay way, way away from these things.
 

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The AMG GT-R Pro comes with the 4 point Schroth harness using the dot legal buckle and ASM shoulder strap. I imagine merc knows what they're doing with their halo track car.

Honda Civic 10th gen 4 point harness for track days or more seat security 19c0233_015
 

ayau

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The AMG GT-R Pro comes with the 4 point Schroth harness using the dot legal buckle and ASM shoulder strap. I imagine merc knows what they're doing with their halo track car.

19c0233_015.jpg
something that comes from the factory isn’t the same as someone installing an aftermarket safety system.

notice the roll bar, 3 point belt buckle, and fixed bucket seat?

all these items work together as an overall safety system. you can’t look at individual components.

this is the same thing as people installing HID bulbs on a car that came with halogen lights.
 

garudatwo

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hey ayau, i think that argument is moving the goal post. discussion here is the merit of schroth's 4 point with the asm setup.

but to address your concerns:
roll bar: it's to provide a hardpoint to mount the shoulder straps. oem belt mount locations in the rear vs a bar can both sustain forces on the strap during a crash. the inside belt will break its stitchings to allow the driver to rotate into the airbag anyways.
3 point buckle: it's not usable on the driver's side; the strap isn't routed into the seat receptacle.
fixed bucket seat: porsche gt cars can run harness with both fixed and folding seats, i fail to see the point here

to be transparent, i'm running a similar setup in my RS for hpde, without any issues for tech inspections. the 4 point from schroth is specifically the only type allowed. i find the topic of harnesses usually involve a lot of hearsay passed from generations of forum readers.
 


willskiGT

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The AMG GT-R Pro comes with the 4 point Schroth harness using the dot legal buckle and ASM shoulder strap. I imagine merc knows what they're doing with their halo track car.

19c0233_015.jpg
That 4 point harness is affixed to a roll bar and the car uses a Recaro Pole Position, which is a fixed back racing seat that also helps prevent submarining. Generally, you would want to wear a HANS device with this setup on track as well.

Another important point is that it also has a 3 point belt for street use (you can see it just to the right of the seat in the photo - it's silver).

Here's a photo of a GT-R that's actually set up for track use - the F1 safety car. Note the 6 point belts.

Honda Civic 10th gen 4 point harness for track days or more seat security 4544c5b461b72664610732ef95872d9a


Having watched the video of Schroth's ASM setup, I would not feel comfortable getting into a high speed 80+mph wreck on track with that harness in place, even with a HANS device. There is a ton of submarining, despite their efforts to minimize it.

I especially wouldn't utilize that setup for street use.
 
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willskiGT

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but to address your concerns:
roll bar: it's to provide a hardpoint to mount the shoulder straps. oem belt mount locations in the rear vs a bar can both sustain forces on the strap during a crash. the inside belt will break its stitchings to allow the driver to rotate into the airbag anyways.
3 point buckle: it's not usable on the driver's side; the strap isn't routed into the seat receptacle.
fixed bucket seat: porsche gt cars can run harness with both fixed and folding seats, i fail to see the point here

to be transparent, i'm running a similar setup in my RS for hpde, without any issues for tech inspections. the 4 point from schroth is specifically the only type allowed. i find the topic of harnesses usually involve a lot of hearsay passed from generations of forum readers.
I trust a roll bar much more than the rear belt mountings to not deform and continue to restrain me during a crash.

Takes about 30 seconds with a socket set to switch over the 3 point belt through the lower receptacle - not overly difficult.

A fixed bucket seat reduces the likelihood of submarining. FIA certified seats (like some Pole Positions) generally are designed to reduce submarining. I would imagine the 918 buckets in your RS would have anti-submarining properties (have ridden in/driven a friend's 991 GT3 with them), don't know about the GT2 seats.

HPDE and actual racing are totally different animals. Things that will pass without question in an HPDE setting would never, ever fly at any SCCA/NASA/FIA sanctioned event. I'm guessing you aren't hearing a HANS device at your HPDE events either.
 
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garudatwo

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I trust a roll bar much more than a secondary belt to not deform and continue to restrain me during a crash. Like you said, the secondary belt will deform, which defeats the entire purpose of a 4/5/6/7 point harness.

The 3 point buckle is absolutely usable on the driver's side. On Pole Positions, it does not get routed through the harness receptacles - those are for harnesses only.

A fixed bucket seat reduces the likelihood of submarining. Not sure if the GT2 folding buckets or the 918 Spyder fixed back buckets are FIA certified, but the Pole Position is.

HPDE and actual racing are totally different animals. Things that will pass without question in an HPDE setting would never, ever fly at any SCCA/NASA/FIA sanctioned event. I'm guessing you aren't hearing a HANS device at your HPDE events either.
hey willskiGT, i think you're missing the point of this product. it's not to provide additional safety over a 3 point, but to provide the equivalent safety and additional stability. hence why the inside belt is intended to stretch in a crash event. i fully agree 6 point + fixed seat + full cage + hans is the way to go for full safety, but again, this isn't the point of the product.

the 3 point buckle again is not routed through the seat receptacle. i'm not talking about the upper shoulder strap passthroughs, but the lower ones by your butt. if you use that 3 point as mounted, you will absolutely submarine as there will not be any tension around your lower waist.

for hpde/racing, believe the OP is talking about track days, not racing. that's a different discussion, and i agree with the different set of requirements

here's sportauto's guy running an impressive lap without hans, using the 4 point setup:
 

ayau

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If you can provide independent studies and data points that prove a 4 pt will reduce injuries more than an OEM safety system, then that’s a different story. Without this information, then your guess is as good as mine as far as being equivalent to the OEM safety system.

I’m simply laying out the risks involved when using an aftermarket belt. As long as you understand the risks, then using a 4 pt to feel more secured is fine.
 

garudatwo

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hey ayau, i think at this point i've provided sufficient counterpoints, if you're asking me to provide full research for you, it's a bit unreasonable, since you've yet to provide any for your own. if you're not comfortable running these as an independent setup, i've also seen folks running these over their 3 points. again, this isn't meant to provide more protection, but to mimic the crash behavior of 3 points and keep you tucked into the seat to enjoy that lateral g. point remains that 4 points are factory supported setups, despite forum hearsay

willskiGT, mind talking through how seats can have anti sub properties please? havent encountered that discussion before so i'm curious
Sponsored

 
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