2019 Civic Si Troubles and questions

[the27thaxe]

Magnuson-Moss is what you are referring to. According to my lawyer, he said that Honda's warranty has some verbiage in there that they can void the warranty just for using a tuner. When I checked prior to buying/using the tuner, everything I found said using it would not void my warranty unless it actually damaged the car, and then it would be up to Honda to prove it.

Thankfully, I am in a financial position that I can handle them not repairing and my warranty being voided, but I would guess that many that run a tuner are not. I would not have installed a tuner if I knew that just installing it would void the warranty, without them needing to prove anything. I still would have put the other mods, but would have left the tuner out until the warranty was expired.

I will continue to update this thread to let you guys know what the final verdict is.


On the bright side, I just found out that my special order Ford Ranger Lariat 4x4 with Tremor package has a build for the week of April 5

Those New rangers are sweet, congrats man and yeah definately let us know what happens, my 20 Si is still stock and a tune is not first on my list but this really makes me rethink it while I still have a warrantee

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[Bludrok]

Those New rangers are sweet, congrats man and yeah definately let us know what happens, my 20 Si is still stock and a tune is not first on my list but this really makes me rethink it while I still have a warrantee

In a straight line, the ranger will be faster than my Si

 

[Gruber]

I understand you are asking for court experience and new engine install knowledge . All I can tell you on the legal side that it's unlikely you would win, but not impossible.

What people often misunderstand about the the Magnusson-Moss law is that "proof" means proof in the legal sense. All it really means is that you have the right to sue in a court of law. That's it. Honda doesn't need to prove anything to you before denying warranty. If you sue, Honda will of course need to present their more or less technical arguments, and your experts can present theirs. Honda saying: "the transmission broke, because the customer used an aftermarket tuner to modify the vehicle's computer control, which he was clearly told not to do, in order to increase the forces exerted on the components beyond the level they were designed to safely withstand." That's it. That's the "proof." Nothing else is required of them.
Then the judge or the jury decides. So if you are a gambling man, you can gamble on them ruling in your favor. Which is not entirely impossible, because those who decide are not experts.

On the technical/engineering side I'm more interested in the root cause why it actually failed (which is completely irrelevant to the court). It's still not clear to me whether the car was running on high ethanol, because you said you had the ethanol kit in the EX-T and then you bought the Si for stronger internals.

I believe oil pumps are quite tough, so the oil pump failure because of tuning is not so directly obvious to me. They are tough as long as they have plenty of good oil. Without that, they can fail quite quickly. And, an oil pump doesn't really seem to take on more load just because the engine makes more power/torque. It should work the same at the same rpm.

But, an explanation could be as follows. because of oil dilution, fuel is present in the oil, and then the volatile fractions of fuel more or less quickly evaporate. Less volatile fractions though evaporate slower and they remain in the crankcase forever. Ethanol is not a great lubricant, worse than other gasoline components. Fuel pump is one engine part that definitely prefers a higher viscosity oil.
But, of course, all Honda knows know is that the ECU was flashed, so they wouldn't base their court case on higher than allowed ethanol in the fuel anyway.

 

[Bludrok]

I understand you are asking for court experience and new engine install knowledge . All I can tell you on the legal side that it's unlikely you would win, but not impossible.

What people often misunderstand about the the Magnusson-Moss law is that "proof" means proof in the legal sense. All it really means is that you have the right to sue in a court of law. That's it. Honda doesn't need to prove anything to you before denying warranty. If you sue, Honda will of course need to present their more or less technical arguments, and your experts can present theirs. Honda sayng: "the transmission broke, because the customer used an aftermarket tuner to modify the vehicle's computer control, which he was clearly told not to do, in order to increase the forces exerted on the components beyond the level they were designed to safely withstand." That's it. That's the "proof." Nothing else is required of them.
Then the judge or the jury decides. So if you are a gambling man, you can gamble on them ruling in your favor. Which is not entirely impossible, because those who decide are not experts.

On the technical/engineering side I'm more interested in the root cause why it actually failed (which is completely irrelevant to the court). It's still not clear to me whether the car was running on high ethanol, because you said you had the ethanol kit in the EX-T and then you bought the Si for stronger internals.

I believe oil pumps are quite tough, so the oil pump failure because of tuning is not so directly obvious to me. They are tough as long as they have plenty of good oil. Without that, they can fail quite quickly. And, an oil pump doesn't really seem to take on more load just because the engine makes more power/torque. It should work the same at the same rpm.

But, an explanation could be as follows. because of oil dilution, fuel is present in the oil, and then the volatile fractions of fuel more or less quickly evaporate. Less volatile fractions though evaporate slower and they remain in the crankcase forever. Ethanol is not a great lubricant, worse than other gasoline components. Fuel pump is one engine part that definitely prefers a higher viscosity oil.
But, of course, all Honda knows know is that the ECU was flashed, so they wouldn't base their court case on higher than allowed ethanol in the fuel anyway.

I have the e85 kit, but along with the big turbo kit, it was never installed, because of the issues I was having. I was running 91 pump gas only.

Literally only had the CAI, intercooler, and tuner installed, nothing else. Which is why I stated I do not believe the mods or tuner caused the failure.

As to Oil, I use strictly Mobil1 0w-20 Annual or EP. It was last changed approx 8000 miles ago.

I too am interested in knowing why it failed, but I fear we may never know.

 

[DRUSA]

Take your settlement and walk.

I have to deal with this on the regular, you will not win in court and your attorney knows it as well. As mentioned, the case Honda makes is that they guarantee the quality of the product in stock trim from manufacturer defects. No company offers a warranty that protects the product from abuse/tamper against the intended use by the customer.

The Honda legal team will make the case that the vehicle has been tampered with, proof presented will be by the engineering department that will show the ECU has been tampered with from factory showing the program file numbers etc. The ECU has been tampered with to allow the engine to produce more power and force than the product was intended to operate at, failures occurred as a result of altering the vehicle etc etc etc. They will call in the factory engineers vs the 3rd party tech and BAR tech. I've met these guys, they are essentially insurance adjusters, they might have turned wrenches a few years and tapped out, but I haven't met one yet that blew me away intellectually, pretty average techs.

We use LKQ engines and trans all the time. They are just junkyard pulled parts from other wrecked cars. The only problems we've had with them is that their junkyard techs are morons. I've had to order 3 gas tanks before because they cut the filler necks off removing them (molded into the tank as one piece), the CVT trans I did last week had a bunch of broken sensors/bent lines that I had to transfer over from the old trans. It's used stuff, its as good as the previous owner took care of it. With your parts history, I would definitely get the extra insurance.

I read threads like these everyweek now. Guys, Honda is denying these tuner claims all day long now, flash at your own risk.

 

[Gruber]

Honda saying: "the transmission broke, because the customer used an aftermarket tuner to modify the vehicle's computer control, which he was clearly told not to do, in order to increase the forces exerted on the components beyond the level they were designed to safely withstand."

I want to correct myself: Honda actually won't want or need to admit in court, or anywhere else, that the parts were designed only to take stock amount of stress, and above that they will break.

Al they will say is that they don't warranty parts that have been very likely subjected to stress levels increased by modifications, which is the same for every mfg of anything.

Finally, it's not a criminal case. Honda is not burdened with proving anything beyond reasonable doubt. The standard is "preponderance of evidence." If a car mfg had to prove that their car didn't have a faulty transmission or a bad oil pump from the beginning, they would always lose. All they need is to make it seem more likely to the court that the modifications contributed to the failure.

 

[latole]

...Why is this so difficult for people to understand when tuning a new vehicle. Tune at your own risk. .

I agree .

 

[KTunedtoStock]

You might have just talked me out of a Phearable 1.5 tune. That sounds like a time destroying nightmare. Sorry you are going through it.

I'll be honest, it really sounds like this dude was lugging his engine hard. I don't think the phearable tune has anything to do with this. Ive been using it with no issues with normal and spirited driving. But yes, if you tune you might as well say bye to warranty

 

[Bludrok]

I'll be honest, it really sounds like this dude was lugging his engine hard. I don't think the phearable tune has anything to do with this. Ive been using it with no issues with normal and spirited driving. But yes, if you tune you might as well say bye to warranty

Not at all. Been driving stick for almost 30 years. This is the first vehicle I have had any serious issue with, even though I have driven them all about the same. The car in my picture is actually the 2017 EX-T 6MT that I had prior to the Si. It had the same mods and tuner with the same tune installed, driven exactly the same for 40k miles without a single issue.

I know it is easy to make assumptions about how I must have driven based on your reading of my experience, but keep in mind it wasn't my engine that failed. The oil pump stopped delivering any oil pressure without any warning lights or errors, which caused the turbo to fail. Also, as stated by a previous poster, the oil pump should work the same at a given RPM regardless of my driving.

Thank you for the response.

 

[KTunedtoStock]

Not at all. Been driving stick for almost 30 years. This is the first vehicle I have had any serious issue with, even though I have driven them all about the same. The car in my picture is actually the 2017 EX-T 6MT that I had prior to the Si. It had the same mods and tuner with the same tune installed, driven exactly the same for 40k miles without a single issue.

I know it is easy to make assumptions about how I must have driven based on your reading of my experience, but keep in mind it wasn't my engine that failed. The oil pump stopped delivering any oil pressure without any warning lights or errors, which caused the turbo to fail. Also, as stated by a previous poster, the oil pump should work the same at a given RPM regardless of my driving.

Thank you for the response.

I understand, i just dont want him thinking it had something to do with the tuning when it wasn't, when you said you were flooring it but didn't give specific gear or speeds, thats generally what it sounds like

 

[WhiskeyTango]

I feel like the original post changed since I first read it two weeks ago. It seems like you’re changing your narrative for some reason...

 

[Bludrok]

I understand, i just dont want him thinking it had something to do with the tuning when it wasn't, when you said you were flooring it but didn't give specific gear or speeds, thats generally what it sounds like

Oh, I see now. I think you just misunderstood. When that was happening, the turbo had already blown out. I heard a noise that I thought might be the turbo, so I changed my cluster to show boost pressure, and floored the accelerator for a moment (somewhere between 5 and 15 seconds) to see how the vehicle would respond and what my boost was doing. It was having the issue because of the failed turbo, and had nothing to do with lugging the engine.

Since you asked, I was going 55mph in 4th gear when the problem happened.

I feel like the original post changed since I first read it two weeks ago. It seems like you’re changing your narrative for some reason...

How so? I do feel like most of the focus of the discussion has been on the tuner voiding the warranty, or my driving, which was not my original intent. I mainly wanted to know about used engines from LKQ and the possibility of installing either a sport or a k20c1 engine into my SI, whether it be used from LKQ or a crate engine from HPD, but from what I can tell, it is still a largely unexplored area. However, I believe the extended discussion about the voiding of my warranty will be helpful to some in the future. As I stated previously in this thread, I thought that my warranty would only be voided if the tuner actually caused damage to my car and that Honda would have the burden of proof if it came to that.

 

[KTunedtoStock]

Oh, I see now. I think you just misunderstood. When that was happening, the turbo had already blown out. I heard a noise that I thought might be the turbo, so I changed my cluster to show boost pressure, and floored the accelerator for a moment (somewhere between 5 and 15 seconds) to see how the vehicle would respond and what my boost was doing. It was having the issue because of the failed turbo, and had nothing to do with lugging the engine.

Since you asked, I was going 55mph in 4th gear when the problem happened.

I dont really see that as lugging the engine, but most people have pointed out that weak 4th gear stating its for overdrive like 5th and 6th. Typically with high power though, Hard to say. Sorry that happened to you.

 

[phearable]

You might have just talked me out of a Phearable 1.5 tune. That sounds like a time destroying nightmare. Sorry you are going through it.

I'll be honest, it really sounds like this dude was lugging his engine hard. I don't think the phearable tune has anything to do with this. Ive been using it with no issues with normal and spirited driving. But yes, if you tune you might as well say bye to warranty

Phearable has nothing to do with this thread whatsoever. The original post states he was running a hondata basemap.

 

[KTunedtoStock]

Phearable has nothing to do with this thread whatsoever. The original post states he was running a hondata basemap.

I was commenting on what another user said, "that he may have just talked him out of buying a phearable tune" the user may have been speaking about tuning in general. I wanted it to be clear that the phearable tune wasn't an issue

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