2017 Civic Hatchback U.S. Model Lineup Revealed, Including Sport Model

[Ma_deuce]

They are losing a whole demographic of people who prefer 6spd but don't want a base stripped down model. How disappointing. I really thought Honda was finally listening to it's customers. I guess I was wrong.

They are listening to their customers. Unfortunately the vast majority of their customer base in the US, doesn't want a manual transmission.

Sucks for those of us that do.

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[comptonx]

I agree completely with this. I was actually pretty excited I was gonna be able to get a manual turbo with a sunroof and apple/android. Now I'm back to square one. That had to be some HUGE typo in the original release. If it wasn't and Honda decided last minute to ditch the EX with a manual, that will go down as one of Honda's biggest mistakes ever made. They are losing a whole demographic of people who prefer 6spd but don't want a base stripped down model. How disappointing. I really thought Honda was finally listening to it's customers. I guess I was wrong.

Exactly how I feel. I would love an alternative to the CVT with at least some upgrade in trim. Carplay with manual would have been a good start. Was very happy with the original news release but this update is a bummer. The Accord EX has the combo...not sure why Honda made the change with the Civic.

 

[optikalillusi0n]

They are listening to their customers. Unfortunately the vast majority of their customer base in the US, doesn't want a manual transmission.

Sucks for those of us that do.

There is actually quite a demand for the manual in a higher trim and always has, hence the EX accord with 6sp. One must only look towards many online publications, other forums, social media, etc.

I agree with you, that it may be not be as big as those who prefer automatic or CVT, however the market definitely is there. That's why other brands such as VW and Mazda are very popular choices. However, I prefer Honda for many reasons.

 

[DavidJBrooks]

I won't be upset if there is no Si Hatch, I'll just go lease a GTI Autobahn for ~$250/month (GTI discounts are insane right now). VW understands that 6MT buyers can also prefer leather/HIDs/active safety/sunroof/etc.

I had a 2015 GTI for over a year, and it's a great car. I owned a MkIV GTI and a MKI Rabbit, and drove a MKIII GTI for a period of time.

While it is much better in terms of reliability than it used to be, though, it's no where near Honda level (naysayers re: the CivicX notwithstanding). Parts will fail, and probably right after the warranty expires. I had niggling and intermittent issues with my MKVII (audio system crashing, power windows not working properly) within a few months of delivery, and the dealership couldn't track them down.

The VW will be great up until then - oerall, the fit and finish is superb, the power is great, the features (when they work) are great, and the "feel" is hard to quantify. I used to be fine with knowing I'll have to put up with the reliability issues, but now that i'm an old man with better things to do than sit at the dealership, I'm looking to Honda for my "fun" car.

 

[DavidJBrooks]

Exactly how I feel. I would love an alternative to the CVT with at least some upgrade in trim. Carplay with manual would have been a good start. Was very happy with the original news release but this update is a bummer. The Accord EX has the combo...not sure why Honda made the change with the Civic.

I'm not sure why they made the change - but I did posit a theory.

With this change, I can't understand why (from a business standpoint) Honda wouldn't make an Si hatch. The Si engine will be certified, the shell will be certified, the different exhaust system will have been certified - the investment is already made. The hatch engines are already made in the US. Once you ship the motor, everything except the seats and the badges are already at the Swindon plant.

I already saw a hole in the lineup just waiting for the Si to fill, and that hole just got bigger IMHO.

Of course, Honda has made some bizarre (and maddening, to me) business choices for their US lineup before. I would be driving an ILX right now if you could have gotten it with a 6MT and the tech package, or an Accord if it could be had with the 6MT and the nav/sunroof, or an Si if they had a few more features (heated seats, primarily). All of these vehicles - in these configurations - were being made here, in North America - but I couldn't buy them.

If the Si hatch doesn't materialize, I'll wait to get the details on the CTR. I would prefer an Si over the CTR, though.

If the CTR doesn't have a sunroof, nav, heated seats and all those goodies (which it probably won't because racecar), I'll get get an Si 4 door.

 

[optikalillusi0n]

I'm not sure why they made the change - but I did posit a theory.

With this change, I can't understand why (from a business standpoint) Honda wouldn't make an Si hatch. The Si engine will be certified, the shell will be certified, the different exhaust system will have been certified - the investment is already made. The hatch engines are already made in the US. Once you ship the motor, everything except the seats and the badges are already at the Swindon plant.

I already saw a hole in the lineup just waiting for the Si to fill, and that hole just got bigger IMHO.

Of course, Honda has made some bizarre (and maddening, to me) business choices for their US lineup before. I would be driving an ILX right now if you could have gotten it with a 6MT and the tech package, or an Accord if it could be had with the 6MT and the nav/sunroof, or an Si if they had a few more features (heated seats, primarily). All of these vehicles - in these configurations - were being made here, in North America - but I couldn't buy them.

If the Si hatch doesn't materialize, I'll wait to get the details on the CTR. I would prefer an Si over the CTR, though.

If the CTR doesn't have a sunroof, nav, heated seats and all those goodies (which it probably won't because racecar), I'll get get an Si 4 door.

I think it's very silly to NOT include a manual in an upper trim, for a car that is supposed to by Honda's words - the sportiest civic ever imagined. In addition, no manual on an engine with a turbo??? That's just a sin and a terrible oversight.

 

[the_phew]

I had a 2015 GTI for over a year, and it's a great car. I owned a MkIV GTI and a MKI Rabbit, and drove a MKIII GTI for a period of time.

While it is much better in terms of reliability than it used to be, though, it's no where near Honda level (naysayers re: the CivicX notwithstanding). Parts will fail, and probably right after the warranty expires. I had niggling and intermittent issues with my MKVII (audio system crashing, power windows not working properly) within a few months of delivery, and the dealership couldn't track them down.

The VW will be great up until then - oerall, the fit and finish is superb, the power is great, the features (when they work) are great, and the "feel" is hard to quantify. I used to be fine with knowing I'll have to put up with the reliability issues, but now that i'm an old man with better things to do than sit at the dealership, I'm looking to Honda for my "fun" car.

That's why I said I'd lease a GTI; return it just as the bumper-to-bumper warranty expires. I'm not convinced VW will be solvent in three years either, so I don't want to be stuck with extra depreciation due to that (I say this as a former Saab owner). The current ~20% discounts on GTI Autobahns cut the lease payment in HALF. The first 3 years of ownership with the new Si would be significantly more expensive than a GTI no matter how you finance it, because of the difference between ~0 discounts and ~20% discounts.

 

[DavidJBrooks]

@the_phew - where are these deals for 250/mo leases on autobahns? seriously worth considering.

 

[the_phew]

@the_phew - where are these deals for 250/mo leases on autobahns? seriously worth considering.

In my area, I see dozens of 2016 6MT Autobahns (w/ PP and LP) on Cars.com for ~20% off (~$27k, $34k MSRP); most are red for some reason. That may include some rebates/incentives you don't qualify for (recent college grad, military, etc). But you can get $500 off for being a SCCA member at most dealerships. There is $250 lease cash also right now.

Lease residual is 58% for 10k miles/yr, money factor is .00115. Plug those numbers into a lease calculator (this one is my favorite: http://leasehackr.com/calculator/) and it comes out to ~$250 before taxes, fees paid up front (no cap cost reduction).

 

[DavidJBrooks]

In my area, I see dozens of 2016 6MT Autobahns (w/ PP and LP) on Cars.com for ~20% off (~$27k, $34k MSRP); most are red for some reason. That may include some rebates/incentives you don't qualify for (recent college grad, military, etc). But you can get $500 off for being a SCCA member at most dealerships. There is $250 lease cash also right now.

Lease residual is 58% for 10k miles/yr, money factor is .00115. Plug those numbers into a lease calculator (this one is my favorite: http://leasehackr.com/calculator/) and it comes out to ~$250 before taxes, fees paid up front (no cap cost reduction).

Thanks - something to think about, for sure.

 

[thaseint]

VW understands that 6MT buyers can also prefer leather/HIDs/active safety/sunroof/etc.

VW also understands that people do actually like the utility of a hatchback combined with performance and a fair price. After it became pretty clear that there will be no Si hatch and the CTR is likely going to be priced in the high-30's low 40's, it's becoming harder and harder not to look at buying a GTI.

I mean the GTI really has something for everyone: 2.0T, 6MT or DSG, leather or cloth, HID, sunroof or no sunroof, LSD, Carplay, Android Auto, amazing aftermarket support and reasonably priced. It's just the dang EA3888 with it's carbon buildup issue that keeps me away along with fears of reliability beyond 100k. Not to mention I'm not sure how much longer VW will be solvent...good bye resale value if I do run into reliability problems.

Mazda had it with the MS3, Subaru had it with the WRX hatch, Ford gets it with the ST/RS...basically it's just Ford and VW for those in the market for a hot hatch in the US. The problem is that both of those brands have their faults that keeps them from being considered a "long-term" car IMO. Really is a shame that it doesn't look like Honda has any immediate plans to release a Si hatch.

 

[Design]

The carb issue can be traced back to the PCV in earlier generation DI platforms. Manufacturers like Mazda were using the same PCV from their port injected counterparts which were believed to create oil separation issues. That in turn was recirculated through the IM where the deposits attached to the valves. Some believe the same issue exists with port injection; but was being masked as the deposits would get washed away by the fuel.

Ford and Mazda both seemed to have figured it out through a combination of better PCV design and hotter temps at the intake valves. VW, BMW and Subaru still appear to be struggling. I think a simple catch will help minimize the intake valve deposits. Though some have gone so far as to bypass the EGR.

Jury is still out on Honda (though their NA design is doing quite well so far).

 

[thaseint]

The carb issue can be traced back to the PCV in earlier generation DI platforms. Manufacturers like Mazda were using the same PCV from their port injected counterparts which were believed to create oil separation issues. That in turn was recirculated through the IM where the deposits attached to the valves. Ford and Mazda both seemed to have figured it out through a combination of better PCV design and hotter temps at the intake valves. VW, BMW and Subaru still appear to be struggling.

I think a simple catch will help minimize the intake valve deposits. Though some have gone so far as to bypass the EGR.

Interestingly enough in my research of the subject I found this patent from someone on Reddit: https://www.google.com/patents/US6866031

This is illustrated in FIG. 4. The intake valve temperature is above 380° C. in the shaded region 112b of the characteristic diagram. At these temperatures, carbon deposits on the intake valves 20 are removed. This region 112b of the characteristic diagram occurs, for example, at speeds over 3,000 rpm, and in that speed range. extends essentially to full load. Even if the internal combustion engine is not operated most of the time in the region 112b during normal driving operation of a motor vehicle, nevertheless, carbon deposits that could adversely affect the operation of the internal combustion engine cannot build up, since their removal in the shaded region 112b of the characteristic diagram occurs very quickly. For example, operation of the internal combustion engine in this region 112b of the characteristic diagram for a period of, for example, 20 min., is sufficient to remove even a thick layer of carbon deposits. In other words, a routine expressway trip cleans the intake valves20 sufficiently.

So an Italian tune-up basically...though I would imagine plenty of GTI owners do this somewhat regularly so not sure how effective it really is and it seems like if it worked VW would have publicly recommended this or at least created some kind of service procedure that could be done without creating a potentially unsafe driving situation for owners.

 

[Design]

We saw this first hand in the Mazda world. The MS3, MS6 and CX7 all shared the same DI 2.3. The carb buildup was most prevalent in the CX7s at younger miles. Primarily because of how they were driven. That said, it won't prevent tens of thousands of miles of recirculation and buildup, no matter how aggressively driven. At some point, the IM has to be removed and the intake valves blasted with media.

On topic, for the hatch, catch can should be the first mod.

 

[neteng101]

Really is a shame that it doesn't look like Honda has any immediate plans to release a Si hatch.

Why an Si hatch when you'll soon get the CTR hatch? I could see a case for a lower tune Sport Touring 6MT (not offered) but there's no need for the Si when the CTR will be available.

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