serif

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2015
Threads
2
Messages
124
Reaction score
178
Location
NJ
Car(s)
9G Accord V6 Slushbox Sedan
Heads up: a first post filled with rampant speculation ahead!

Here's some newer info that could be relevant: alongside the introduction of the 1.0l 3-cyl turbo for Europe, Honda also announced the supplementary engine for Europe will be the 1.5l turbo, but with 150 kW (~201 bhp) and 260 N-m (~192 ft-lb). Here's a slide from the intro detailing this engine.

The power difference could be down to higher test gasoline sold in Europe, because all the other specs are identical to the North American version. However, it would have to be tuned slightly differently to accommodate the better gas. Making the Si "premium unleaded only" would be in keeping with the past, so that tune could easily see its way into the Si.

Rampant speculation time: if the rumors are true and the Si will continue with around 200hp, this looks like the engine. Honda doesn't do vastly different variations on the same engine for single models; they're always at least related if not identical across models, even if the code and output are slightly different, e.g. K24 and J35. So I definitely do not expect a standalone, brand-new engine for the Si, at all. Also, back in 2013, they announced all 3 of the now-current turbo engines, including the 2.0 for the Type-R, the 1.5, and the 1.0.

However, I think other engines are possible. Not in that announcement is anything to bridge the gap between the 1.5 and hi-po 2.0 (not that Honda ever really had anything to bridge the K-series and J-series). So another, less likely possibility is an unannounced, lower-output 2.0l turbo with ~240hp (halfway between the 1.5 and hi-po 2.0) that will entirely replace our old friend the K24 (or even J35 in some cases) in the Si, ILX, TLX, Accord, and CR-V. There's also a rumored 225-230hp 1.5l turbo that's rumored to see duty in the rumored "baby NSX"/"next S2000" in rumored on-again-off-again development. Or so I've heard. That rumored engine could be a possibility. If it's more than a rumor, I think it's the likely choice.

There is a fourth possibility, and it's exciting but unlikely. It would make the Si a global model and instantly take it into the lead of the "entry" hot hatch horsepower wars in Europe, but still leave room for the Type R. The original announcement cited above listed an output for the 2.0l of "at least" 280hp and showed a Type R concept with 280hp. Then the Type R came out with 302hp. To me, this means there exists a small possibility that Honda has developed a 280hp version that will drop into the Si, reintroduce the Si in Europe, and subsequently replace the J-series in some North American models. That means the next Type R would have a further developed 2.0l with more than its current 302 hp, likely move to SH-AWD--as is possible with the new chassis--and the Si will debut at the head of its class with 280hp. Honda has used some cagey wording in its press releases for the Civic X, citing the Si as a separate model, and this engine could support that idea. This is the most enticing option; it's what I would do if I were in charge. But if I were in charge, the Si wouldn't have lost the manic K20.

TL;DR: I speculate the Si will have one of 4 turbo engines: the announced 200hp 1.5l, a rumored 230hp 1.5l, a new unannounced 240hp 2.0l, or the announced 280hp 2.0l. I think one of the 1.5 engines is most likely.

 

Viva la vida

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Threads
4
Messages
124
Reaction score
35
Location
Vancouver BC
Car(s)
Civic EX-T
@serif good read and analysis. The other part of this equation that we don't know (and I wish we did!) is the intended pricing Honda has for the Si. Like you said, a standalone brand new engine for the Si would be unexpected and it would also bump up the pricing significantly would be my guess. So if Honda's goal is to keep the next Si as close to current pricing as possible I can't see option 3 or 4 happening. Option 1 would keep it closest to current price but be a disappointment, while option 2 sounds like you're talking about a detuned version of the Type R's 2.0T, which would add some price but not as much as a whole brand new engine.
 

serif

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2015
Threads
2
Messages
124
Reaction score
178
Location
NJ
Car(s)
9G Accord V6 Slushbox Sedan
@serif good read and analysis. The other part of this equation that we don't know (and I wish we did!) is the intended pricing Honda has for the Si. Like you said, a standalone brand new engine for the Si would be unexpected and it would also bump up the pricing significantly would be my guess. So if Honda's goal is to keep the next Si as close to current pricing as possible I can't see option 3 or 4 happening. Option 1 would keep it closest to current price but be a disappointment, while option 2 sounds like you're talking about a detuned version of the Type R's 2.0T, which would add some price but not as much as a whole brand new engine.
The key to me is sharing the base engine with other models, which would keep costs down. The Si has always used an off-the-shelf engine, so it has to apply somewhere else. I'm not sure the 1.5 at 230hp fits in anywhere else. A lower output 2.0 would, as in my option 2. Using it to replace the K24 in Acuras and the Accord would make sense for Honda, since it'd increase performance and fuel economy.

Something I didn't think of before is the history of Type Rs using slightly up-tuned versions of Honda's more sporting engines, going back to the B18C5 in the first ITR, and relying on suspension and weight to distinguish themselves from the GS-R, Si-R, and Si models. This could lend more credence to the idea of a slightly de-tuned hi-po 2.0, which could also fit in as the Accord's top engine, and possibly the TLX and RDX. We can only hope.
 

Design

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
Threads
27
Messages
3,250
Reaction score
2,833
Location
Southern California
Car(s)
09 MS3, 17 ABM Si Sedan
Country flag
Most agree the 1.5T is out. When Honda showcased the motors during their 2013 press event, they were designed to illustrate output towards the maximum range. If anything, and this is a stretch, we'd see a slightly higher output 1.5T reserved for a "Sport" trim, similar to Honda's treatment of the Accord.

The appeal of the Si will be the right combination of power and efficiency. In today's market, that's going to be around 220-260 HP for the sport compacts. Even cars on the lower end of the spectrum, such as the GTI, are expected to receive a small bump in power within 1-2 years. The 2.0T gives Honda the flexibility to execute a modest powerplant with good midrange response without sacrificing fuel economy; something the 1.5 will struggle to accomplish.
 

Viva la vida

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Threads
4
Messages
124
Reaction score
35
Location
Vancouver BC
Car(s)
Civic EX-T
Most agree the 1.5T is out. When Honda showcased the motors during their 2013 press event, they were designed to illustrate output towards the maximum range. If anything, and this is a stretch, we'd see a slightly higher output 1.5T reserved for a "Sport" trim, similar to Honda's treatment of the Accord.

The appeal of the Si will be the right combination of power and efficiency. In today's market, that's going to be around 220-260 HP for the sport compacts. Even cars on the lower end of the spectrum, such as the GTI, are expected to receive a small bump in power within 1-2 years. The 2.0T gives Honda the flexibility to execute a modest powerplant with good midrange response without sacrificing fuel economy; something the 1.5 will struggle to accomplish.
Agreed the 1.5T wouldn't give nearly as much flexibility as a 2.0T for a power bump for the refresh but it's probably still got enough overhead and factory safety built in to easily get a 5-10hp bump which is all that's required for a refresh. And both being turbo engines that's as easy to accomplish as a slight ECU software tweak.
 

BernR6

New Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Threads
0
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Location
Pennsylvania
Car(s)
Mazda 3 hatch
I'll be interested to see what engine the Si comes with. I've been a Honda boy at heart, being that I've owned 6 Hondas throughout my 20s. I feel that Honda lost their way with the past few generations. Hoping this gen instills some excitement in the brand.

Seeing the recent tests on the 1.5T Civic with CVT, pulling 6.8 sec 0-60 and the upcoming Type R around 5.7, I question if the new Si will even improve, performance-wise, over the current gen. I know 0-60 isn't the be all end all for choosing a car, but it at least gives an idea of a cars performance capabilities. Even with more power than the base civic, it'll probably be low 6's...isn't that what the current gen is doing? I'm not so sure there'll be much of an improvement in power, if Honda wants to prevent the Si of stepping on the Type Rs toes. Hope I'm wrong. (Could be like the '12 WRX I had, which was quicker than the STI of that year).
 

takemorepills

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2015
Threads
9
Messages
703
Reaction score
310
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
1987 Prelude Si
Country flag
I'd like to see real world owners get 0-60 in 6.8s with their 1.5T's, most mags have these at mid 7's. C&D may have got a ringer...

But anyways, FWD is becoming the limiting factor in 0-60 now. There's been lots of talk saying that the current Honda V6-6MT is about all FWD can handle. If the Si ups the game at the same rate that the 1.5T Civic has, likely it will be at the limits of FWD 0-60 (with factory tires) just like the CTR. 0-60 in 5.7 is not very fast these days, but it's likely because of FWD. So, the real differentiation in straight line performance between the CTR and Si will be 1/4 mile trap speed and high speed passing.

But for the Si to be at that point isn't very far from where it's at right now. I have seen published 0-60 of 5.9 sec for the recent K24 Si. So, for the next Si to get close to the CTR 5.7 isn't much of a stretch...you would assume. Honda will need to retain the LSD on the Si, and if it goes with a 2.0T you will definitely see close to CTR 0-60 performance. Top speed and 1/4 mile should be different though. Just like the WRX, likely the real separation between Si and CTR will be in driving dynamics and hardware upgrades that will make the CTR more track appropriate.

I have also heard rumor that a 1.5T variant with VTEC could end up as the Si motor, as the Civic 1.5T doesn't have VTEC....
 

G26okie

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2015
Threads
7
Messages
301
Reaction score
143
Location
Florida
Car(s)
2016 Accord EX-L V6 Sedan
I'd like to see real world owners get 0-60 in 6.8s with their 1.5T's, most mags have these at mid 7's. C&D may have got a ringer...

But anyways, FWD is becoming the limiting factor in 0-60 now. There's been lots of talk saying that the current Honda V6-6MT is about all FWD can handle. If the Si ups the game at the same rate that the 1.5T Civic has, likely it will be at the limits of FWD 0-60 (with factory tires) just like the CTR. 0-60 in 5.7 is not very fast these days, but it's likely because of FWD. So, the real differentiation in straight line performance between the CTR and Si will be 1/4 mile trap speed and high speed passing.

But for the Si to be at that point isn't very far from where it's at right now. I have seen published 0-60 of 5.9 sec for the recent K24 Si. So, for the next Si to get close to the CTR 5.7 isn't much of a stretch...you would assume. Honda will need to retain the LSD on the Si, and if it goes with a 2.0T you will definitely see close to CTR 0-60 performance. Top speed and 1/4 mile should be different though. Just like the WRX, likely the real separation between Si and CTR will be in driving dynamics and hardware upgrades that will make the CTR more track appropriate.

I have also heard rumor that a 1.5T variant with VTEC could end up as the Si motor, as the Civic 1.5T doesn't have VTEC....

What other car magazines have posted 0-60 times other than C&D (6.8) and MT (7.2)? The only other time I've seen was Autobytel on youtube which got 7.0 seconds.
 

takemorepills

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2015
Threads
9
Messages
703
Reaction score
310
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
1987 Prelude Si
Country flag
What other car magazines have posted 0-60 times other than C&D (6.8) and MT (7.2)? The only other time I've seen was Autobytel on youtube which got 7.0 seconds.
I can't really answer that one because right now all the reviews are just a flurry to me. I keep seeing things from 6.8 to 7.5, of course I remember the 6.8 source. The 7.5 source, all I can remember is that was a Canadian publication.

I am not really keeping dibs on the 1.5T as what I want to see is a Si without the 1.5T. Also, since my wife may get a 1.5T hatch if that materializes, I certainly do hope that the 1.5T does 0-60 in 7.0 or better....that'll make it a nice driver.
 

M1160

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2015
Threads
1
Messages
56
Reaction score
18
Location
NJ
Car(s)
Lots of Uber
I'd like to see real world owners get 0-60 in 6.8s with their 1.5T's, most mags have these at mid 7's. C&D may have got a ringer...

But anyways, FWD is becoming the limiting factor in 0-60 now. There's been lots of talk saying that the current Honda V6-6MT is about all FWD can handle. If the Si ups the game at the same rate that the 1.5T Civic has, likely it will be at the limits of FWD 0-60 (with factory tires) just like the CTR. 0-60 in 5.7 is not very fast these days, but it's likely because of FWD. So, the real differentiation in straight line performance between the CTR and Si will be 1/4 mile trap speed and high speed passing.

But for the Si to be at that point isn't very far from where it's at right now. I have seen published 0-60 of 5.9 sec for the recent K24 Si. So, for the next Si to get close to the CTR 5.7 isn't much of a stretch...you would assume. Honda will need to retain the LSD on the Si, and if it goes with a 2.0T you will definitely see close to CTR 0-60 performance. Top speed and 1/4 mile should be different though. Just like the WRX, likely the real separation between Si and CTR will be in driving dynamics and hardware upgrades that will make the CTR more track appropriate.

I have also heard rumor that a 1.5T variant with VTEC could end up as the Si motor, as the Civic 1.5T doesn't have VTEC....
You bring up a good point about the acceleration limitations of FWD. I don't ever remember a FWD car in the 4.x range so looked it up. Fastest one so far is a Taurus SHO at 5.2s. The current CTR is already at 5.5 so it'll be hard for it to gain much in the 0-60 department for the 10th gen model. So I also think the Si could close the gap on 0-60 compared to the CTR, that is unless Honda wants to purposely hold it back to not step on the CTR's toes (like how Porsche purposely holds back the Cayman compared to the 911). They might especially want to do that with the upcoming CivicX models since this will be the first time the CTR is sold here and I bet they want to give it the best chance to succeed. An Si model that gets close in performance for significantly lower price might eat up some CTR sales.


fwd.jpg
 

Design

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
Threads
27
Messages
3,250
Reaction score
2,833
Location
Southern California
Car(s)
09 MS3, 17 ABM Si Sedan
Country flag
Eh, power and traction are mutually exclusive these days. Worst case they'll limit output in the lower gears, similar to how other high output FWD platforms are managed. Easily overcome with a couple ECU tweaks.
 

takemorepills

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2015
Threads
9
Messages
703
Reaction score
310
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
1987 Prelude Si
Country flag

drakenc

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Threads
0
Messages
18
Reaction score
17
Location
virginia
Car(s)
MX-5, Matrix XRS
The current 4th Gen Ford Taurus SHO is AWD. Don't know how it got on that list.

Surprised that the SRT-4 Caliber wasn't on there. Then again, it was also encumbered by wheelspin and electronically limiting torque in the first few gears much like a number of other high powered FWD cars.


I wouldn't get all wrapped up in 0-60 times as it requires good traction , good driving, and serious abuse on the drive train in order to accomplish the best times.

I'm with takemorepills in that I find trap speeds and measuring accelerations from a roll would be more useful to me like say.. 40-100mph times. I'm fairly certain you would see a much greater disparity between trims through that aspect.
 

Tuttle

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Threads
3
Messages
140
Reaction score
43
Location
Virginia
Car(s)
CBR600RR
I wouldn't get all wrapped up in 0-60 times as it requires good traction , good driving, and serious abuse on the drive train in order to accomplish the best times.

I'm with takemorepills in that I find trap speeds and measuring accelerations from a roll would be more useful to me like say.. 40-100mph times. I'm fairly certain you would see a much greater disparity between trims through that aspect.
Well said. Not to mention the disparity in tires can makes a big traction difference. As well as the ambient conditions (temperature, altitude, etc) at time of the testing, which especially affects forced induction cars.

 

 
Top