Whoosh

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This exactly. If they put a 1.5 liter turbo in there I will not be getting the Civic Si. I'll go with the Focus ST or even the 2015 Civic Si.
I think you and a lot of other people. And most people buy without diving into the technical specs like we do here. Everything else roughly equal (price, performance), people will choose a bigger sounding engine.

I'm surprised you'd choose the 2015 Civic Si over a 1.5T Si though. The driving dynamics are already reviewed to be a ton better in the 2016 standard models and the Si's engine performance (even if just a 1.5T) is guaranteed to be better than the current Si.

 

takemorepills

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Honda designed the 1.5T to replace the previous generation 2.0/2.4 NA motors. The motor can match or surpass the output numbers of both of these motors due to all the new technology and the addition of a turbo. Both the 2.0 and 2.4 were previous and dated engine designs that had reached the end of their cycle. The 1.5T is both more powerful and more efficient at all the respective power levels. The fact that the "competition" for the Si are using larger motors and boasting more power is irrelevant. Honda has never made an Si that was class leading in HP/Torque. The Si has always been exactly what it is, a Civic with some "Sport Injected" into it. There's no reason to believe that Honda will "go all out" on a new Si model, give it 250 HP with a de-tuned Type R motor and follow it up by a Type R that is going to be encroached on by a beefed up Si. Why would Honda bring over the Type R only to have it fail cause everyone just gets a Si and tunes it. I predict that the Si WILL get a power bump, mostly in TQ. Everyone is bashing the 1.5T cause of its "size, but until recently Honda has always used sub 2.0 motors in Si models. 1.6 SOHC, 1.6 DOHC. I don't think anyone back in 92-99 was complaining about their motor being so "small." The Si WILL sell if it releases with the 1.5T, I dont think some of these fan boys on here who want a Type R but dont want to pay for it have a rational thought process compared to Hondas marketing and engineering departments. Would a 2.0T Si with 250HP/TQ for 26-28k be amazing sure, is it a pipe dream? probably. The Type R is going to be an exclusive Halo car for Honda. They wont let it be encroached on in the least bit.

My prediction for the Type R pricing is(for its competition) going to be too expensive. The Si will be solidly in the "good value" category however. The reason for this is the Type R is a symbol, its the fastest FWD car, does it have the most power? No. Does it resort to AWD? No. The Type R isn't about tech sheets, its not about stop light boy racer fun. It is the pinicale of Honda research and engineering and making the best in class(which it does not share easily in America due to price and FWD competition) car there is. So, it will stop things like a Focus ST, or a GTI, it will be more expensive tho. So that's why I think it will be "Expensive" rather then "value." Will it be worth it? To some, yes. To me? Yes.
First off, I don't know exactly what you mean by "fan boys on here" but if it is directed at those of us who adamantly admonish the idea of a 1.5T in the Si, I hope you can explain your meaning of "fan boy" as something other than the typical derogatory internet statement hurled online at fans of certain vehicles.

I don't know where you get your frame of reference from. I have been around Si Honda's since the beginning. Back when they first came it, they were competitive at the time. Both in engine size and technology. And they were lighter than they are today, by A LOT. Back in the 80's, 0-60 in under 9 seconds for a compact sporty car was excellent. That's all there was back then, despite the presence of a few cars that didn't stand the test of time like the Omni Shelby GLH. You can't just say that they were using NA 1.6's so whats wrong with a 1.5T now...uh, weight and competiton, maybe??

Also, back then, Civic was the lowest Honda. Today, the Fit is the lowest Honda. So that means current Civics need not make due with the smallest engine(s).

The only car that the 1.5T has a right to share an Si badge with would be the unlikely to happen Fit Si.

The problem with your logic and a few others has been that you refer to a 2.0T as a "de-tuned Type R motor". Why not refer to it as a turbocharged version of the base 2.0L motor? Forgot about the Integra line of cars that ALL used the B series motors, but managed 3 entirely different cars from the same body and B series platform?

Anyways, speculation aside, the fact of the matter is that we live in a world of 300+HP 4 cylinder Mustangs, GTI's that put out way more performance than their humble 2.0T ratings suggest (see above dyno, GTI is famous for way more WHP than flywheel rated). Saying that Si's always got by with less is not a fair assessment. When the Si's first came out, the 4cyl and 6cyl Mustangs of the time were archaic and no match for the Si's, The VW GTI back then was a more appropriate match at times, the Escort GT was no match (think Focus ST today). Who can a 1.5T Si compete with? Honda is gonna slap Si fans in the face with a 1.5T motor because it is "good enough" and meets corporate strategy? Well, it seems corporate is not holding back on CivicX so far, so why would they hold back on the Si? As long as the Si and CTR don't cut into CAFE too much, Honda CAN green light an engine better than the 1.5T for the Si.

So, a few people say 1.5T could happen in the Si (I agree, anything is possible at this time), but here is how that would look on paper:

Subcompact class:
Sonic 1.4T
Fiesta 1.6T
Veloster 1.6T (maybe blurrs into compact class)

Compact class:
Focus ST 2.0T
GTI 2.0T
Civic Si 1.5T....what, how did that car end up with such a small engine in this class????!!?!?!?!?!
WRX 2.0T
 

cae

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Indeed, even the 1.5T sedan with the CVT puts down performance figures closely rivaling those of the current K24 Si. A massaged 200HP/200TQ 1.5T example would surely best the K24 Si in most fields. The Si will be placed in competition regardless of Honda's (or anyone's) desires for it to be defined as a "tweener" car. Magazines will pit the new Si against cars similar in price and scope. Prospective buyers will run the numbers, and test drive for themselves. It's an enthusiast trim, and enthusiasts should love competition. The more a "special snowflake" category is carved out for the Si, the more they forfeit to the competition that exists despite efforts to shift goalposts.

And this only takes into consideration the car in stock form.

For every passed opportunity to square off with the GTI or Focus ST while citing price, there are tuned Fiesta STs or Golfs looking to prove they can punch above their price, and will happily meet your conditions. The WRX/GTI will likely win in a straight line, and a BRZ/Miata will win in driver feel. That doesn't mean Si has to fold. All your buddies have moved up to BMX bikes; settling for a 1.5T in the Si is lacing up your Rollerblades.

If Honda decides to do the 1.5T Si, there'll be no outrage or offense taken from me. I'll just be headed to the Volkswagen dealer instead.
 


takemorepills

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A Fan Boy is someone who is so passionate about a certain thing that they can not clearly form an accurate representation of the facts compared to their own beliefs.


To close, I NEVER said Honda IS DOING anything. I have only given my opinion(and disclaimer'd my posts by stating them as such) on how I foresee Honda proceeding with the upcoming models based on previous history as well as current gathered information. I have backed all my opinions with linked and/or accurate quantifiable information. If people of the forum so choose to be offended by the information that I have put forth, then they are Fan Boys. I still believe Honda will make a 1.5T Si. If me saying that is insulting, well, live with it, cause it most certainly is nothing but an opinion. I cannot help that people jump into a forum, click on the last page and comment on threads without reading every post for context and information. I am here to bounce ideas off people, and theory craft upcoming models like the Honda/civic/Si/TypeR fan that I am. Let us all hope for the best, who knows maybe Honda will finally make a V8 and stuff a 5.0L twin turbo and electric supercharged motor in the next Si, and plan for the worst, which a 1.5T if far from terrible.

Hope you all enjoyed the read.
:dance:
Firstly, we are all running on speculation at this point. Including you. So actually your fan bay comment and definition is insulting, because I have been around Honda since the first Si's, have a 29 y/o Si in my garage right now, owned/knew all of the Civic/CRX/Prelude SI's and your definition states I can't "form an accurate representation of the facts". So, what does that make you, more "accurate" than the people on here who share my same HOPE that the Si is not neutered by a 1.5T?

Also, your chronological assessment of the Si timeline doesn't support your opinion. The fact that at one time, the Si shared an engine with the EX Civic was a long time ago. Starting with the B16 Si, which was also a long time ago, Honda did commit to putting Si specific engines in the Si. B16 then K series for 3 generations (actually I could stretch it to 4 generations with the del Sol, but the B16 del Sol wasn't actually an Si). Granted, I will agree that if Honda drops the 1.5T in the Si it will be going back to it's roots of the first 2 versions that shared the EX motor. However, they should also make the car without airbags and power windows too, because to be really going back they oughtta drop those items as well. Oh and bring the 3 door back and fix the damned CR-Z!! But they aren't gonna do any of those things (well, some hope they'll fix the CR-Z) they are making cars for today. SO, HOPEFULLY, no more crank windows and no more EX motors, RIGHT???

Since the B16 Civic, the Si has left A LOT on the table for tuners with the stock engine (let's not forget the inclusion of LSD, a huge benefit for tuners). The 1.5T won't. BTW, speaking realistically, the 1.5T is a world motor, if you missed my previous comment about that motor. It is specifically a motor made for CAFE and the world market where anything above 1.5L gets taxed more. Ford dropped the 1.6EB from their Fusion because they wanted to sell it in China, so now the Fusion gets the 1.5EB. That's the same strategy here, and another REASONABLE, and not "fan boy"-ish reason I think the Si won't get the 1.5T

Listen dude, we can all have reasonable banter, as you have offered you are only trying to do the same: "I am here to bounce ideas off people, and theory craft upcoming models like the Honda/civic/Si/TypeR fan that I am. Let us all hope for the best, who knows maybe Honda will finally make a V8 and stuff a 5.0L twin turbo and electric supercharged motor in the next Si, and plan for the worst, which a 1.5T if far from terrible." But when you start calling people names and then going into long drawn out OPINIONS of why others deserve that "fan boy" title, well that's just a little f-ed up on your part.

If the Civic Si got a 1.5T, I will not whine about it. I don't care. I will consider the CTR, but most likely I'll get a WRX Premium. I almost bought one last year, but I want to wait to see if the Si is REALLY special. With a 1.5T...not special. Honestly, I am not a Civic guy. I wILL whine about the Prelude not coming back, IMO that is the car I want to come back. But that ain't gonna happen either.

My main reason for being so strongly opinionated about the Si is the HOPE factor. If Honda is currently testing a 1.5T version and a (insert N/A or 2.0T here) version, and if they are listening to the fan base, then I think it is doing the fans an dis-service if a bunch of people say "meh, I guess the 1.5T would be ok" maybe the delay of Si specs is because Honda hasn't settled yet on what drivetrain. So let's keep hoping the car is better than a tarted-up EX coupe, OK? Because I doubt Honda is gonna give us a warmed over EX coupe with a stick shift, wheels, red accent gauge lighting and special seats. It's been a long time since that happened!
 
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Regi_Derrick

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Focus ST 2.0T: $24,425 Base MSRP 252HP/270TQ
GTI 2.0T: $25,595 Base MSRP 210/220 HP/250TQ
Subaru WRX: $26,595 Base MSRP 268HP/258 TQ
2015 Civic Si: $22,890 Base MSRP 205HP/174TQ



3 Things to point out here:

First, You listed 3 competitors that are in the compact class, yet the current civic can now be classified as a Mid-Size due to it's increase in interior and cargo volume. So none of those vehicles are really competition for a civic Si, marketing wise anyways. (This first one is a bit of a troll, and mostly a technicality statement. Why post if your not gonna have fun right?
Civic may have 'technically' moved up in volume to be 'technically' classified as a midsize sedan, but you and I both know the Civic will continue to be primarily compared to its compact traditional competition. The current Elantra and Sentra are both classified as "midsize" sedans too, but the average consumer would never compare a Sentra to an Accord or Camry, the Altima exists for a reason. Hell, even the Versa hatch (at least the previous generation) was considered a midsize based on EPA measurements, but nobody compared it to an Accord, Camry or Altima either.

Point is, the Civic SI's traditional competition will still remain the same for consumers looking for these types of cars. Same as the Civic will continue to be compared to the Corolla, Focus, Mazda3, etc. The Civic's overall market position does not move enough in cubic volume, price or amenities to move it into the midsize sedan category, otherwise we wouldn't need an Accord, which is the midsize sedan in Honda's eyes.

Secondly, Honda, as I stated, has never Lead the class in HP/TQ yet has been successful selling Si models as its "Crown" civic. This is the current case with the 2015 Si. Even with a "Massive" 2.4L NA motor, Honda fought the competition with only 31HP/12TQ advantage to the current standard models economy tuned 1.5T. That was with Hondas best shot at a performance motor in a civic, the 2.0Ls prior to the 2.4 introduction had even lower numbers. Adding a 1.5T pushing 200+Hp/TQ is far from "good enough." Not only will the car be more responsive and have a flatter and wider power/torque curve it will also be more efficient. All of these add up to a Fun Affordable SportY(not sportS) car.
Honda is basically re-writing the entire script on the latest "Epic Civic" as they've called it. Brand new engines, all-new platform, roomier, more upscale and most of all sportier. Honda keeps going on about how this will be the "sportiest" Civic ever, I'm inclined to believe that Honda is going to pull out all the stops for this car. I actually believe the hype! Keep in mind that there were reports a few weeks ago about how Honda didn't even intend to use the new 1.5t in the Civic at all in the beginning of this new generation. That engine was not supposed to come along until the updated MMC a few years after the 10th generation was on sale. I'm not saying the 1.5t won't be used, but considering how much hype Honda is making with this car, how desperate they are to get over the "half-assed" perception of the current Civic (despite its strong sales) I just don't see them using a souped up version of the 1.5t in the Civic SI. Perception is reality in this class of cars, and while the current SI has sold well, I think Honda is concerned with both sales and reputation. 2.0t just offers more in the way of usability, potential for modding (especially since it would share some components with the Type-R) and it would propel the Civic SI to the enthusiast. Most former SI owners that I know have been upset with Honda since the 9th gen ended up getting the 2.4, best way to remedy that for previous buyers and new-ones alike is to go all out and offer an "epic" engine in the new Civic SI. Otherwise if we end up with a 1.5t, many (myself included) will be upset. Besides, a Civic EX-T 1.5t 6mt is on the way, if you want sporty 1.5t/manual, you'll have the EX-T 1.5t soon enough.

There is more than enough space (hp) for the Civic SI and Type R to share 2.0t specifications. Of course the Type R will have its special components to set it apart from the SI, but there is enough room for the SI to compete hp wise with its "competition" while not stepping on the toes of the Type R.

Lastly, it's all about the $$. Honda undercuts its closest "competition" by ~ $1,500. That gap grows to ~ $3,500 for the most expensive of the cars you'd listed. This was also an issue I addressed previously in another post. I claimed that Honda has always been a "tweener" with its performance civics going for affordable fun cars rather then class leading sports. This is important because the upcoming Type R will also be slotted as a "tweener" in America. This is due to the fact that a base Type R will be way above the listed competition but will struggle against similarly priced halo versions of these cars: Focus RS, Golf R, WRX STI. Due to the fact that the Si model will no longer be the Civic Halo version, it will maintain the same affordable fun mantra that Honda has build the Si for since its creation. This will leave room for the Type R to go in for the kill.
The last time Honda concerned itself more with "pricing" and "undercutting the competition" we ended up with the 2012 Honda Civic...the car that started the generation of Civics getting revisions every year since. This time Honda isn't worried so much about the pricing, they've moved this car up in every way and they are doing everything in their power to wash the bad taste of the 9th generation Civic out of consumers and critics mouths alike. Outside of a lack of AWD (which surely will be important) I don't doubt the Type R will hold its own (and probably outperform) much of its competition once it's finally available. Besides, the SI should not be handicapped if the Type R can't compete. Sounds similar to the situation Honda has been in for years with its competitors. Acura couldn't compete with the luxury brands, always competing on price and being the "tweener" luxury brand. It worked in the 90s and 2000s but it's not a workable strategy today. Honda's were often under equipped next to their competition in order to not step on Acura's toes...and both brands ended up suffering.

I believe a 1.5t Civic SI would be OK for all intents and purposes, but I think just from a perception standpoint, Honda needs to pull out all the stops on the Civic, period. From the base LX all the way up to the Type R. After this previous generation's lackluster reviews and tarnishing of the Civic's perception as the class leader, I think it behooves Honda to really make all variants standout in regards to the competition. They did an excellent job with the basic sedan trim levels, to keep the momentum (and sales going) I think the Coupe, Hatchback, Type-R and of course, the SI models, have to stand out as well. Putting a 1.5t into the SI model punts the Civic SI a bit IMO. A 2.0t Civic SI with about 220-250hp, resets the game...and that's the whole point of the new Civic. Resetting the game, restaking the Civic's claim as the class leader and shitting on the competition.
 
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Regi_Derrick

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Glad that everyone feels like calling out the FACTS that I post with more subjective banter. Didn't realize i was posting on Honda's R&D forum with all these know it alls.
Some of your information is factual, some is speculation, especially your bogus claim that the Civic SI no longer competes with the GTI, Focus, WRX, etc. because of EPA classifications and slight volume size increases, but whatever. LOL Besides, we all are entitled to our opinions and thoughts on the 10th generation Civic. Old "facts" about previous SI engines in regards to what Honda may or may not do today aren't really relevant considering the entire script for the Civic has been re-written.

We'll find out soon enough. March will be here before we know it.
 

sickk23

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Old "facts" about previous SI engines in regards to what Honda may or may not do today aren't really relevant considering the entire script for the Civic has been re-written.
Hopefully the Civic's script has been rewritten enough to offer an automatic (dual clutch, if you will) transmission on the Si. I'm holding out for the new Si, but only if its not a manual lol my commute is too much to always be pushing in a clutch. Fingers crossed!!
:imnew::spaz::beer::fear:
 


froidpython

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Hopefully the Civic's script has been rewritten enough to offer an automatic (dual clutch, if you will) transmission on the Si. I'm holding out for the new Si, but only if its not a manual lol my commute is too much to always be pushing in a clutch. Fingers crossed!!
:imnew::spaz::beer::fear:
Sorry dude but I really hope they keep manual only. But who knows you may get lucky :p
 

takemorepills

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Hopefully the Civic's script has been rewritten enough to offer an automatic (dual clutch, if you will) transmission on the Si. I'm holding out for the new Si, but only if its not a manual lol my commute is too much to always be pushing in a clutch. Fingers crossed!!
:imnew::spaz::beer::fear:
I'm with you on this one. My wife says I can buy a Si as soon as it's available. And only if it's an AT. Hopefully for me the Si doesn't get saddled with the 1.5T and/or CVT.

1986-1996 Prelude Si had AT, so it has happened to the "Si" before....

Of course still gonna get it even if it's MT only. It just won't go over so well with the wife.
 

Design

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But what's the point in manual only? Is it because it'd make it more exclusive?
Several factors ranging from cost to brand personality to performance. The main reason is that the Si has historically been a semi-low production, economy-based model. And configuring the ECU & drivetrain to accommodate an automatic would have been both expensive and risky. However, Honda has moved this generation upscale several notches and moved production to a global platform. So don't be surprised if one is offered in conjunction with the redesigned ILX 2.0T in late 2016/early 2017.
 

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Hopefully the Civic's script has been rewritten enough to offer an automatic (dual clutch, if you will) transmission on the Si. I'm holding out for the new Si, but only if its not a manual lol my commute is too much to always be pushing in a clutch. Fingers crossed!!
:imnew::spaz::beer::fear:
I feel you on that! I am a die hard manual transmission fan (hell my 2014 Fusion SE is a 6spd manual!) but there are times when I get frustrated with the manual...and I'm a former truck driver. I am "considering" a Touring sedan. I'm still very much likely to go for the SI but I will admit I'm seriously looking at the Touring model. If the SI comes in automatic form I don't think I'd want it, but I have no issue if they do offer one. Makes sense to me. If I'm gonna go auto I'm gonna get the luxurious model...if I'm going to get the stick shift, its going to be an SI. I can't wait for the Civic to hit dealerships!

 

 
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