takemorepills

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Since so many people have it stuck in their mind that a detuned 2.0T Si would conflict with a CTR, how about we think of it another way? Think of a 2.0T Si as a turbo version of the base 2.0 Civic engine.

 

takemorepills

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And even though it has more hp/torque, the new civic seems to match it in 0-60 and 1/4mile times/trap speed according to car and driver.
I gotta say that maybe Honda figured out how to get more power to the ground than usual. The 1.5T has very modest output, but the wide torque band and possibly very efficient drivetrain seem to give it better performance than you'd expect, kinda like how the VAG 2.0T seems to over perform.
 

G26okie

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I gotta say that maybe Honda figured out how to get more power to the ground than usual. The 1.5T has very modest output, but the wide torque band and possibly very efficient drivetrain seem to give it better performance than you'd expect, kinda like how the VAG 2.0T seems to over perform.
Or they under rated the power figures. This was an engjne in prototype form making 200hp.
 

cae

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Since so many people have it stuck in their mind that a detuned 2.0T Si would conflict with a CTR, how about we think of it another way? Think of a 2.0T Si as a turbo version of the base 2.0 Civic engine.
70% of the performance at 70% of the price. I don't see a problem there. The conflict arises when people assume they'll be able to tune their Si engines to CTR levels with little to no issue. That in itself isn't even a problem, but when the prospective CTR buyer looks at what the ~$8000+ buys him/her over the Si, that list may seem a bit weak at first - HiPer struts, Brembos, wheel/tire package, seating, aero, and trim exclusivity? Maybe Honda would say that's not an issue, or they weren't planning to sell many on value in North America; who am I to say? I'm all for a 2.0T Si, because that's the trim I'm really looking at. I just think it'd be a shame if they finally brought the CTR over and it didn't sell well beyond its launch because the Si was the better value. It's all speculation at this point anyhow.
 


takemorepills

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70% of the performance at 70% of the price. I don't see a problem there. The conflict arises when people assume they'll be able to tune their Si engines to CTR levels with little to no issue. That in itself isn't even a problem, but when the prospective CTR buyer looks at what the ~$8000+ buys him/her over the Si, that list may seem a bit weak at first - HiPer struts, Brembos, wheel/tire package, seating, aero, and trim exclusivity? Maybe Honda would say that's not an issue, or they weren't planning to sell many on value in North America; who am I to say? I'm all for a 2.0T Si, because that's the trim I'm really looking at. I just think it'd be a shame if they finally brought the CTR over and it didn't sell well beyond its launch because the Si was the better value. It's all speculation at this point anyhow.
WRX/STi....end of story...

nah I like to internet speculate so....

Honda has tons of "tricks" it can do to differentiate the CTR from Si, let's not get stuck on the engine TYPE. Extra body welds, some lighter weight pieces, engine parts that do NOT interchange with the Si engine that give the CTR engine clear hardware superiority...thereby rendering a Stage 2 tune on an Si irrelevant when the CTR also has a Stage 2 tune, for example. Unique brakes, suspension parts/geometry, bodywork, options, lighting (maybe Si can't get LED headlights but CTR will??) And not to mention the labor/time required to swap thousands of dollars of cobbled together CTR parts onto your Si. You think you'll be able to get LED headlighst and CTR brakes swapped onto a new Si from a new CTR for under a few thousand bucks?? All of that adds up to real value over the Si.

Also, from MotorTrend: "The base engine is a 2.0-liter, naturally aspirated inline-four with two camshafts, producing 158 hp at 6,500 rpm and 138 lb-ft of torque at 4,200 rpm. A relative of the Euro-market Civic Type-R's 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder, the square (86mm bore by 85.9mm stroke), port-injected 2.0-liter has that VTEC, of course."
http://www.motortrend.com/features/mt_hot_list/2016-honda-civic-10-new-tech-niblets/

So Honda isn't averse to whoring out this 2.0. They can just claim that they turbo'd up the base 2.0, not that they detuned the CTR engine. Either way, the engines can be related but not comparable.
 

cae

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And like the WRX, they could give the Si a glass transmission, or forgo the LSD. Who knows? I certainly wouldn't expect the Si and Type R engines to be capable of similar tunes from the factory; this is where I hope they mirror VW a bit. We'll see, I'm impatiently waiting.:D

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takemorepills

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For all those in doubt of the 1.5T saying its already tapped out....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...g_-0y6js8S8iJE7Fg&sig2=OwYUsGUR_czptKgfF9b-hA

This is an article from a few years ago when development was underway for these new motors. I just have a feeling Honda wants to keep the Si in the 200-220 range but just add better TQ numbers. I'm not suggesting the 1.5T will swap over with a tune and do this but its not that hard to change of pistons and rods for durability and higher profile cams and intake for better breathing. We're only talking 30-50hp and TQ vs the current economic 1.5T
The link didn't give any 1.5T details I suppose you were trying to share?

I am not in doubt of the 1.5T. I am certain. It is tapped out, period. The current K series is not tapped out, it is a beast with a turbo kit, and reliable too. At 220HP, the 1.5T would be tapped out. K series make 300WHP with a turbo kit all day long, many people get more than that out of them, on stock internals.

And Si owners are not a group of people averse to modifying their Si's. Give them a NA K, they'll slap a turbo kit on it. Give them a 2.0T, they'll tune it. Give them a 1.5T, they'll turn their backs.

For example: http://prlmotorsports.com/2012-civic-si-turbo-system-stage-2.aspx#.Vijq002FOcw at least 375WHP stock motor. No way ever would the 1.5T do that. You'd have to dump a butt load of money into the motor before you could boost it's brains out like that.
 

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Great discussion gentlemen. :cool:


I gotta say that maybe Honda figured out how to get more power to the ground than usual. The 1.5T has very modest output, but the wide torque band and possibly very efficient drivetrain seem to give it better performance than you'd expect, kinda like how the VAG 2.0T seems to over perform.
I imagine it's 80% CVT. Even at WOT it seems to keep power in the sweet spot. So if a typical motor peaks at 200 at redline, but drops to 160 between shifts, the average output of the powerband is around 180.
 


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For all those in doubt of the 1.5T saying its already tapped out....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...g_-0y6js8S8iJE7Fg&sig2=OwYUsGUR_czptKgfF9b-hA

This is an article from a few years ago when development was underway for these new motors. I just have a feeling Honda wants to keep the Si in the 200-220 range but just add better TQ numbers. I'm not suggesting the 1.5T will swap over with a tune and do this but its not that hard to change of pistons and rods for durability and higher profile cams and intake for better breathing. We're only talking 30-50hp and TQ vs the current economic 1.5T
There's a lot more that would have to be reworked. Turbo, IM, exhaust/cat/DP, etc. It's more economical to configure the 2.0 for the range of power they're after (210-260).
 

cae

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So cost of engineering isn't a factor for them, and neither is how much the after market tuners will be able to gain on a stock system. Honda will be shooting for tweeners on this generation. The si will be better but still not able to compete with 250+ cars
It might not hurt their sales with Civic leading the pack regardless, but a 1.5T Si would be a non-competitive waste of the trim. Not just non-competitive with cars like the GTI and Focus ST, even given the prototype 200HP/TQ figures, also against a car like the Fiesta ST, which has much more torque. Might as well hire Jony Ive to do the ads "A visceral driving experience uniquely exclusive to Civic Si..." because they'd be drinking some Apple-tier Kool-Aid at that point.

And Si owners are not a group of people averse to modifying their Si's. Give them a NA K, they'll slap a turbo kit on it. Give them a 2.0T, they'll tune it. Give them a 1.5T, they'll turn their backs.
This.
 

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"Like the three-cylinder, this turbocharged four is meant to replace a larger four-cylinder engine, say something in the 2.0-2.5-liter range. With 201 hp and 192 lb-ft of torque onboard, it’s well-positioned to do that."

From the article I linked. My point is that Honda has designed the 1.5t to replace previously used 2.0 na motors. And that Honda has ALREADY developed parts for that motor to be in the +200 range. So cost of engineering isn't a factor for them, and neither is how much the after market tuners will be able to gain on a stock system. Honda will be shooting for tweeners on this generation. The si will be better but still not able to compete with 250+ cars and the type R will blow things like the STI out but will fall short of cars like the upcoming RS. Just IMO. I had posted that link as an insight into Honda's engineering team results and philosophy.

I don't care either way what the si gets. I'm getting a Type R regardless.
You mean you think the 1.5T will replace the 2.0L in the LX eventually in this generation also, or that the Si will get the 1.5T?

We don't have pricing idea for the CTR yet though. What price range do you think it's a good value or too expensive?

 

 
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