2016 Civic engine recall - piston pin snap ring issue affecting some VINs

[dick w]

BUT should AC Compressor issues, Transmission issues, oil leaks or anything else arise
…

…they will arise much sooner than the end of your warranties or be unrelated. Again, you are all arguing with the wrong person. I didn't make the decision to stroke or not stroke affected owners with warranty extensions. My only point with the comment was that if you are really concerned about the human factors failure modes here, you should be discussing different solutions than a warranty extension.

Unless they pay attention and keep close track of what fastener, screw, etc goes where and just happen to know what torque to use on which screw, which as you said yourself they don't really pay attention to, it leaves more room for error than if the details were provided.

They could make the procedure 1,000 pages long and you aren't eliminating the human element. In fact, you are less likely to get compliance if you make it that long. This is a balancing act whenever you develop and validate a technical work instruction. (Something I've been involved with just a few times.) Too long, it gets ignored because the tech just says "what do they think I am, a dummy?" and gets on with doing it the way that seems best. (Another very real human factor response that has to be accounted for.) Too short and you leave stuff out.

I'm just not clear what you are all expecting here besides that this issue never happened. Honda is not developing this documentation to make affected owners feel better about the process.

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[Traum]

My only point with the comment was that if you are really concerned about the human factors failure modes here, you should be discussing different solutions than a warranty extension.

Dick, if this is the only point you can see, then you are missing the mark of why many of us think it is reasoanble for Honda to step up to the plate and offer an extended engine warranty for the affected vehicles. It is about responsibility. It is about a loss of trust for the early adopters. As an owner, I am not a newbie that expects zero problems out of a completely re-designed vehicle in its first year of production. What I do not expect, however, is a moderately invasive procedure that requires the disassembly of numerous parts (exhaust, AC compressor, torque rod / rear engine mount (?), oil pan, baffle plate, oil strainer, etc.) on a brand new vehicle that costs me Cdn $25k. Seeing that it is a first year model, I know there'd be some inherent risk in buying the new gen Civic now. Based on Honda's reputation, I took a calculated risk based on Honda's solid reputation on reliability, and it turned out that I lost my bet big time. The least Honda could do to restore some faith, in addition to fixing the mechanical things up, is to offer a goodwill engine warranty for x number of additional years.

Given the incident and the current state of affairs, I am 1000% less likely to buy again from Honda in the future. Had Honda tried harder to make up for this screw up by offering an extended warranty, at least I (along with other potential buyers) would know that they can still shop for a Honda in comfort, knowing that the manufacturer is willing to stand behind their reputation that they build reliable cars, and will take care of their customers if things go a little awry.

 

[My2016Civic]

My only point with the comment was that if you are really concerned about the human factors failure modes here, you should be discussing different solutions than a warranty extension

Dick, I already opted for Honda Care extended warranty at the time of purchase for piece of mind of buying the first model year redesign. So them offering extended warranty means nothing to me, but I at least have the common sense to see everyone else's point here and even if I didn't I would at least would be polite enough not to continue to argue against what people feel is right.

With that said, you have your obvious opinion on this, let others have theirs..

 

[OHEX]

Hi All-- I purchased a 2016 EX last Saturday but was not allowed to take it off the lot due to stop sale. However, I got a ridiculous deal on it and negotiated in the 7 year Honda care for free due to the issue. Just want to spread a little hope... I got the call today that my car had been checked and is ready to pick up tomorrow. The dealer said they got all necessary parts/borescope in yesterday and we're getting any sold on the lot checked today. I was told my car was fine and did not have to be fixed, so we will see how it all plays out...

 

[lja547]

Hi All-- I purchased a 2016 EX last Saturday but was not allowed to take it off the lot due to stop sale. However, I got a ridiculous deal on it and negotiated in the 7 year Honda care for free due to the issue. Just want to spread a little hope... I got the call today that my car had been checked and is ready to pick up tomorrow. The dealer said they got all necessary parts/borescope in yesterday and we're getting any sold on the lot checked today. I was told my car was fine and did not have to be fixed, so we will see how it all plays out...

Dealership just called me. Parts and tools are coming in and they said if all goes well will have the car by next week.

 

[dick w]

<ymmv>

you are missing the mark of why many of us think it is reasoanble for Honda to step up to the plate and offer an extended engine warranty for the affected vehicles. It is about responsibility. It is about a loss of trust for the early adopters. … knowing that the manufacturer is willing to stand behind their reputation that they build reliable cars, and will take care of their customers if things go a little awry.

I'm not missing the point at all. The fact that I'm not eager to humor it doesn't mean I don't get it. I get that this is what you want and why you want it. I also get why Honda isn't eager to do it and why they don't see a significant downside to not doing it. And I am not surprised in the least that they aren't doing it. And I'm OK with them not adding in the cost of providing extended warranties with every recall into the cars I buy in the future. YMMV.

We'll see what they do for any owners who end up with a short block or some new pistons out of the deal. I won't be at all surprised if they (however few or many "they" there actually turn out to be) get a side deal, not apparent here, when the case gets called in, per the TSB, to the tech line. And that would make a lot more sense to me, from both an owner's PoV, and from Honda's, in terms of all these arguments made here about downstream risk and restoring customer confidence and what not, than doing something like that for every owner that gets to have a couple of hours of donuts and coffee while their car has its oil pan popped off, eight unremarkable pictures taken, the car buttoned back up, vacuumed and washed, and them sent on their way.

I think Honda is standing behind their product and are doing what is necessary to make sure your car is as good as the car you expected when they sold it to you. It seems to me like they got right on this thing and I see no technical sign that they aren't doing all reasonable and prudent things to put it behind them and the owners. Now, are they being as sweet as they could be to get the owners to feel better about it? No. They could replace the cars with factory fresh ones. Or buy you all out and send you off to better manufacturers. Or give you a little extra warranty that shouldn't end up costing them much and would clearly make a very few of you feel much, much, happier. But they are going to do what they are going to do, and, so far, that's not it.

YMMV. I'm OK with that.

I at least have the common sense to see everyone else's point here and even if I didn't I would at least would be polite enough not to continue to argue against what people feel is right. … you have your obvious opinion on this, let others have theirs..

I haven't said otherwise, But I don't see that pointing out illogical arguments as such--say, that the probability of human error performing this fix is somehow solved, or an owner is somehow made whole over it, by extending a warranty way down the road--is saying that if you feel otherwise you aren't entitled to your feelings in the matter, or that it tries to deny your ability to express that opinion. By all means, say it all you want--preferably to Honda, saying it to us here won't get you much--that Honda should have shown affected owners more of their humble apology by whatever means you feel is appropriate.

Now, if you all want to start a thread devoted to what more Honda should do for you to compensate for this beyond what they are offering, I promise not to read or post in it and you can all feel wronged together and I won't stand in your way.
</ymmv>
Here, just for you:

Dear Honda: Some owners affected by the '16 Civic 2.0L Piston Pin Snap Ring Recall think Honda should extend their warranties as a confidence inspiring, trust promoting, apology and in case of future problems somehow related to this issue that don't occur during the regular warranty but do occur during the extended warranty. Thank you for your consideration.

 

[jimmy-six]

After reading this post I'm glad we bought the 2015 LX. I've built all kinds of racing engines and stockers and there is no way you can guarantee the pistons pin snap rings are properly in place with out removing the piston from the engine. Yes you can boroscope thru the spark plug hole and see if there are any marks on the wall but that does not prove the clips are in correctly. It just means the piston pin has not moved it YET if improperly installed. There are many different style clips and some are very thin and could really screw things up. If this happened to me I would want to see proof the engine was apart and them tell them it theres. I bought a car with a NEW engine and the way the assemble them today with computor control sealants no human can do as good a job consistently. Good Luck

 

[My2016Civic]

<ymmv>
I haven't said otherwise, But I don't see that pointing out illogical arguments as such--say, that the probability of human error performing this fix is somehow solved, or an owner is somehow made whole over it, by extending a warranty way down the road--is saying that if you feel otherwise you aren't entitled to your feelings in the matter, or that it tries to deny your ability to express that opinion. By all means, say it all you want--preferably to Honda, saying it to us here won't get you much--that Honda should have shown affected owners more of their humble apology by whatever means you feel is appropriate.

Now, if you all want to start a thread devoted to what more Honda should do for you to compensate for this beyond what they are offering, I promise not to read or post in it and you can all feel wronged together and I won't stand in your way.

</ymmv>
Here, just for you:

Dear Honda: Some owners affected by the '16 Civic 2.0L Piston Pin Snap Ring Recall think Honda should extend their warranties as a confidence inspiring, trust promoting, apology and in case of future problems somehow related to this issue that don't occur during the regular warranty but do occur during the extended warranty. Thank you for your consideration.

Really Dick? Arguing for arguments sake. Nobody has said that offering extended warranty solves the probability of human error, only that it would provide piece of mind and add confidence to some current owners and potential new owners. Something you suddenly seem to agree with when in past posts you corrected people for suggesting. Let's revisit just a few past posts where you commented against an issue and later commented in support:

And there's the rub. This is exactly why anyone who has their engine opened by a dealer mechanic for this issue should be given an extended warrantee by Honda. One, it's some small compensation for wasting our time having to take the car back to the dealer and get it worked on. I don't know about others but for me, if my car is recalled, this will be a huge hassle. And two, as you said, no engine will ever be reassembled by a dealer mechanic as well as it was originally assembled at the factory (present issue not withstanding). The number of 'come-backs' to dealers (whose mechanics will open engines and then create problems that didn't previously exist) will not be insignificant. It's just the law of averages.

To the above, you responded:

I'm not very sympathetic to this half of the argument. By this logic, they should extend your warranty on the whole car for any issue the car has to go in for. Not going to happen. Not by Honda, not by any manufacturer.

Whole car?!?!? No, we're talking about this one specific recall!

I'm pretty sure the warranty for the transmissions on 2001 Accords was extended to 10 years / 100,000 mi by Honda after issues were discovered.

And to the above post you replied:

Yeah, I've had this happen for specific components as a "confidence building" measure before. Two I recall:

On our '09 135i, BMW extended the warranty on the high pressure fuel pump to convince owners it wasn't crap. This after several part number changes and many owners having repeat failures. They ultimately ended up knuckling under and doing a safety recall with a completely redesigned, not just turd polished, component. Too bad they never did this on the AC evaporator core. Ours were good for 10k miles or 2 years before bleeding out the refrigerant. Talk about an intrusive repair. Inspecting the snap rings on a '16 Civic is nothing by comparison.

Ford extended the warranty on the hardware behind the My Ford Touch pile of infotainment dung our '12 Focus possessed. Problem was that the hardware had to fail the diags before they'd replace it, and it never failed the diags. The hardware was fine. It was the software that was CRAP. And there was no warranty on that, just Ford's embarrassment in the face of massive bad publicity ever forced them to issue updates. That class action is still working its way through the courts. And Ford has cited the extended hardware warranty as a reason they shouldn't be further punished.

So in the above reply, you attested that offering to extend warranty can in fact happen and has happened in your personal recollection and agreed that having them extend the warranty in these cases was a "confidence building" measure.. Well, isn't that the same exact thing people here are saying and you have repeatedly argued against? That offering extended warranty would do the same for those affected by this recall? You may call it piece of mind, call it confidence building, it’s all the same. It's been done for you, others can wish for this too, you're not the only one entitled to this treatment!

Now, if you all want to start a thread devoted to what more Honda should do for you to compensate for this beyond what they are offering, I promise not to read or post in it and you can all feel wronged together and I won't stand in your way.
</ymmv>
Here, just for you:

Dear Honda: Some owners affected by the '16 Civic 2.0L Piston Pin Snap Ring Recall think Honda should extend their warranties as a confidence inspiring, trust promoting, apology and in case of future problems somehow related to this issue that don't occur during the regular warranty but do occur during the extended warranty. Thank you for your consideration.

If CivicX owners want to post that they feel Honda should offer extended warranty on a threat about the engine recall, they have the right to do so without fear of censorship as said posts are related to the recall. That is after all, what a forum is about, for CivicX owners to come together as a community to discuss a topic. And that is what this thread is about: A discussion about this recall and writing a post suggesting that Honda should offer extended warranty is related to this thread, so people have the right to do so without someone forcing their opinion and trying to limit what others post in direct relation to the thread (Censorship). If it bothers you that much even though you yourself have had warranty extended in the past, then don't read the posts or find another thread. And to your other comment, nobody is expecting to automagically get free extended warranty just because they posted so here, this is only a discussion. Case closed!

Like I said in my prior post, I'm not asking for free extended warranty myself as I already paid for mine when I purchased the car, but If people feel they are owed extended warranty to regain confidence or for peace of mind, so be it. Others have recently posted on here that they were in fact offered extended warranty for this recall or at purchase, and I'm sure that while it will be handled on a case by case basis by each dealership, those that have been lucky enough to get this are neither the first nor the last cases in which they did or will offer extended warranty!

Please, do not continue to quote my posts just to perpetuate useless arguments or have the last word. Unless you have something positive, helpful and/or constructive to say let people make their point and post their opinions without fear that you're going to jump in to argue, contradict or tell them to post related comments elsewhere, I'm sure we all would appreciate it.

 

[dick w]

I've built all kinds of racing engines and stockers and there is no way you can guarantee the pistons pin snap rings are properly in place with out removing the piston from the engine. Yes you can boroscope thru the spark plug hole and see if there are any marks on the wall but that does not prove the clips are in correctly. It just means the piston pin has not moved it YET if improperly installed.

You should read the TSB posted earlier today and see how they plan to do this before saying what can and can't be done.

 

[CivicHelp!]

I got the phone call yesterday and brought in my LX immediately. The dealership was accommodating providing a rental car. I'll be without my Civic for about 1 1/2 weeks. I have only 748 miles on the vehicle so I'm keeping my fingers crossed everything will be okay. I'm just surprised of it all because Hondas are known for quality and longevity. But, I guess recalls do happen. At least I learned that the rental car (a Toyota Prius) is a hunk of junk. Good luck to all who have been affected.

 

[Brettjod]

That's the thing that seels like some people are forgetting that any vehicle can end up with a recall. It's not the end of the world. They will fix it and if it breaks down they will fix it again. It can happen to any car. And if anyone wants to not buy a honda again because of it or the lack of extra warranty, you'll probably be looking for a different manufacturer to buy from for awhile. The arguing is getting a bit childish as well. It's the Internet. Relax a bit people.

 

[jimmy-six]

There u go.. 1-1/2 weeks. That engine is coming apart to SEE the clips, the only sure way to positively know. If the piston pins don't float in the piston very much this may never be problem. In my experience a normal pin can move near 1/2" with no clips. Newer pistons today are much narrower in the pin area and pins shorter and the clips are farther in the piston "boss" where it is held. Reading the TSB shows this true in engine since it says the pin could possibly move far enough to come out of one side. This would be catistrophic.

 

[65Mustang]

After reading this post I'm glad we bought the 2015 LX. I've built all kinds of racing engines and stockers and there is no way you can guarantee the pistons pin snap rings are properly in place with out removing the piston from the engine. Yes you can boroscope thru the spark plug hole and see if there are any marks on the wall but that does not prove the clips are in correctly. It just means the piston pin has not moved it YET if improperly installed. There are many different style clips and some are very thin and could really screw things up. If this happened to me I would want to see proof the engine was apart and them tell them it theres. I bought a car with a NEW engine and the way the assemble them today with computor control sealants no human can do as good a job consistently. Good Luck

I'll Take the 2016 with dropped oil pan inspection anyday over the luke warm 2015 grocery getter....Those who think that the inspection entitles them to an extended warranty are off the mark as well...a leaking oil gasket or bent AC hose is easy to spot...no borescope needed...when you schedule your recall appointment, make sure you're getting an experienced tech who's been in the game more than a few months, have a conversation with them before and after the inspection (during if you can) and make sure they know you're on site during the process and I think your fears will dissipate.

 

[Keith]

HondaMan's post #720 with Service Bulletin 16-017 pdf of the official Honda procedure for the inspection is the best info so far on this. No spark plugs will be removed. A 6mm (seated) vs a 2mm (not) snap ring end gap should be easily discernible with the borescope they'll be using.

 

[lja547]

Just picked up the car an hour ago. Here is a copy of what they did to the car.

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