Exyia's Sport Touring Hatchback

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exyia

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Late update because I haven't done much to it - but took the chance to head out to an autox practice day in the next town over.

Honda Civic 10th gen Exyia's Sport Touring Hatchback nQrGpES


This is at Texas A&M SCCA's location, which is where the southern SCCA National Tour is held. I've attended in the past in the Evo, one of the best locations out there - tons of grip on this surface.

For context:
- Not looking to brag, but I am a very experienced autox driver. Competed heavily in 2012 and 2013 among many national championship drivers in my region, as well as getting my feet wet in nationals at this very location.
- Car is running Continental DW's, so no "would be better without the OEM tires" here
- Location and course are national level in terms of layout (not absurdly tight corners) and surface grip. Old photo from when I took my Evo to this location for the SCCA Sunbelt National Tour
Honda Civic 10th gen Exyia's Sport Touring Hatchback 6882527996_28b0722de6_b


I spent too much time enjoying laziness and relaxation this memorial day weekend to upload a quick video, but I figure I should post some impressions now that everyone is looking at the new Si's coming - because I'm also warming up to the idea of one ever since the price was announced way lower than expected.

My immediate first impressions were...I'm not used to driving something so slow. Man I have been spoiled.

But after a few laps, this chassis genuinely impressed me. After the tires warmed up and I got a feel for the car, I was surprised at how nimble it was.

I will go as far as to say that it felt very close to a stock Evo X.

Part of that is because the Evo X comes with very soft spring rates for it's weight (because rallycar), but I have never felt such rigidity and nimbleness with composure in a chassis since the Evo X.

I only used the "normal" VSA off setting. I never bothered to google up the complicated process to fully defeat it - and I'm happy to report that it never interfered. Put good tires on this chassis and it just dances.

There was also an Audi S3 there with a few mods done to it that I rode along with. I've always had my eye on Audi's, but they have yet to build a car that I love enough to buy or that I can afford (R8 please). I have to say, this humble Civic Sport Touring handled better than the S3.

A few big things I've learned through the experience:

1. The CVT still wants to coast in too high a "gear" in -S- mode
While the CVT is fantastic for accelerating, it still wants to try and strike an eco-friendly coast mode when moving off throttle. This really hampered the response out of tight corners (this course having a really tight left-hand turn that highlighted this).

2. The exhaust is too quiet
I could have overcome #1 by manually shifting myself, but I gave up after 2 tries - the car is just too quiet to shift by listening to RPMs. It is such a shame considering how nicely they styled the center exhaust on the Sport Hatchbacks. I was more annoyed by this than by #1.

3. The powerband is narrow
This powerband is pretty narrow, especially the more you run this car. The power output is mostly fine, but it just comes on 1/2 second later than I would like - and 1/2 a second is a lot when approaching/exiting a corner. The intercooler is most likely heatsoaking after a few runs, as the powerband starts to feel slightly more narrow over time (though part of that is enjoying the chassis so much I just want more from the car). An intercooler upgrade is probably worth doing to keep the power up throughout the day

4. An LSD is useless on a narrow powerband
This is probably my biggest take-away from the day. I never felt the need for an LSD. When power did kick in coming out of turns, it was never enough to upset or understeer the car (tires make a huge difference people). The only things I wanted were for the car to be louder so that I could manually shift and stay in the powerband. I felt like the powerband - once in it - was enough and the suspension was fantastic for stock and barely any negative camber.

Ultimately, I was shocked with how well it did. I thought I would spend the day missing my Evo, but I spent the day surprised at what Honda has made with the 10th generation Civic.

The chassis and suspension setup is very nimble and agile. Even the stock spring rates weren't boat-like soft and VERY impressive for a stock car. It was very easy to drive this car at the limit and both still feel in control and manage to still pull some great performance. Throw some light suspension mods (especially some negative camber up front), a louder exhaust, maybe an intercooler to keep charge temperatures down, and this car is seriously capable.

But now I'm curious about the Si. The core chassis is so rigid and nimble to turn, it makes for a great base platform. Widen the powerband, an LSD to claw more aggressively out of corners, and just the right amount of increase in spring/shock stiffness - what a combo...IF the Si has noticeably wider powerband. Like I detailed in #3 and #4 points above, if the Si noticeably widens the powerband of the regular 1.5T with headroom to add more, it's a great platform for some mods.

Honda Civic 10th gen Exyia's Sport Touring Hatchback bRhxopx


It was nice having HondaSensing for the long, tired drive home afterwards though...another point I will have to see if I'm willing to give up on a test drive with the Si.

If you're not an experienced driver, the regular Civic is more than enough. I would not sweat over "is the Si worth it?" question, especially if you're already in a 10th gen Civic now. Throw on some quality tires and some light suspension mods, and you have more than enough car for most driving. Don't let the LSD hype fool you - you do not need it on what the non Si 1.5T can output. I suspect a lot of the hype behind the LSD is partially from the actually stiffer suspension rather than the LSD itself. Handling starts with Tires and Suspension first - both of which are easily upgraded on a regular Civic (can't wait to see KW's offerings for the platform). Only experienced drivers whom have upped the power output and widened the powerband will be glad they got an LSD. With how surprised I am with this chassis, I just might want to do that. But the other half of me would also be happy with some minor upgrades and keeping Honda Sensing - making for a very well rounded, comfy daily driver.
 
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exyia, really appreciate the post-race writeup.

I could already say that I'd want a louder exhaust for autocrossing (the first time I showed off the modded exhaust in my EP3, one comment was, "Well, you're really going to hear your revs now!"), but I was wondering how the CVT would manage on-course.

How fast was the course? Where I've driven in my EP, I never had to shift to 3rd, and I'm guessing that the FK7's "second gear" tops out at just below 60 mph. Was yours going up to third?
 
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exyia

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exyia, really appreciate the post-race writeup.

I could already say that I'd want a louder exhaust for autocrossing (the first time I showed off the modded exhaust in my EP3, one comment was, "Well, you're really going to hear your revs now!"), but I was wondering how the CVT would manage on-course.

How fast was the course? Where I've driven in my EP, I never had to shift to 3rd, and I'm guessing that the FK7's "second gear" tops out at just below 60 mph. Was yours going up to third?
No problem!

Yes, definitely mid-way through 3rd, if not more (because of said lack of sound, wasn't sure). The "gearing" felt incredibly short, but it could also be from the narrow powerband that I felt the need to shift more. And I gave up on shifting after two runs because I just couldn't hear the car enough, and I didn't want to trigger a double upshift from hitting the redline->autoshift + a paddle shift.

The tight left-hander half-way through the course is the most telling in that -
1. You can see the turbolag and narrow powerband delaying the fun. The handling felt more than adequate to handle such a tight hairpin, but the power didn't come on until half-way through the corner
2. An LSD here really wouldn't have mattered if the Si has a similarly narrow powerband and torque output

But it didn't ruin the day for me like I expected (you know - that feeling of "man I wish I had my actual performance car today instead of my daily driver Civic"). The chassis surprised me THAT much and it was a blast trying to squeeze out more time out of what seemed so little. (not to mention Continental DW's are far from top in class for tire performance). It's what I appreciated/respected out of previous Civics darting around courses, but this one is actually nice enough to own/daily everyday.

I managed some 47 second runs. I did get a 46.xxx but the course was pretty dirty as this was an open practice day, so there were no workers resetting cones after each car. Most Mustangs were running 48's, Audi S3 ran 48.5xx I believe. More prepared cars with experienced drivers were running 44's (gutted, Prepared class foxbodys, Porsche's and prepped E30/E40 BMW's with good driver, few kit cars)

Sorry for the bad camera angle, and these were just runs I picked at random. I normally get better content on my autox days, but this was more of a personal enjoyment and exploration day for me and this new Civic.

The more I reflect back on it, the more I'm going to walk in bleak towards the Si. Given the L15 motor is probably already near it's max capability on the CR-V/Si turbo, there might just not be enough power to ever put that LSD to full use. But of course, we'll see on the test drive.

 

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Yeah, that looks like a pretty fast course. Did the CVT keep the engine up in the powerband the whole time? As in, did you ever need to tell it to downshift?

I've been a little annoyed with the size of the new car — it's a hair longer than my wife's '17 CR-V — but then again, it doesn't weigh that much more than my EP3 did.

Maaayyyybeeee I can talk my wife into letting me backtrack from my promise of not modding the FK...
 
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exyia

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Yeah, that looks like a pretty fast course. Did the CVT keep the engine up in the powerband the whole time? As in, did you ever need to tell it to downshift?

I've been a little annoyed with the size of the new car — it's a hair longer than my wife's '17 CR-V — but then again, it doesn't weigh that much more than my EP3 did.

Maaayyyybeeee I can talk my wife into letting me backtrack from my promise of not modding the FK...
The worst parts were longer (in autox terms) braking zones. Either...
1. The CVT is going into a "coasting" mode that they love to do for economy reasons, even in "S"
2. The turbolag/powerband is too narrow to respond quickly coming back on the power (something I never had a problem with on the street)

You can see it happen on mostly the second half of the track starting with the tight left-hander.

The 10th Civic is definitely huge (main reason why I felt the Hatchback was the best form of Civic - at least embrace the size with usable space), but it doesn't feel as big as it does. I haven't felt that since the original Evo X - another car that got huge and heavy over the previous generation, yet didn't feel it at all. The chassis feels more nimble and responsive than you expect from just driving it on the street. I did NOT expect a stock suspension, non-Si Civic to navigate the high speed slalom as well as it did (seriously, from experience - slaloms at that speed can spin out ANY car on stock suspension without above average driver skill)

Best way to sum up how much I like this chassis:
On most performance cars I've tried/driven, I deathgrip the 3 and 9 position on the steering wheel and attack the course. On a very good/well sorted car, I can "dance" the wheel through my hands with confidence. I haven't found many cars to give me this level of confidence since the Evo X. Most other cars I would drive hard at "3 and 9" because they either felt heavy and understeered unless pushed correctly (Subarus, GTI's, Audis), or would oversteer too easily (most muscle cars).
Honda Civic 10th gen Exyia's Sport Touring Hatchback zSL1lw9

src:


Overall, I liked it way more than I thought.

I liked how a meager Sport Touring, no LSD Civic did and only felt it needed more exhaust, even better tires, and maybe some stiffer suspension.

But the core chassis rigidity has me curious on how well it translates to an Si trim.

For those that need an automatic or HondaSensing for other daily/living situation purposes, your non-Si Civic is far more capable than you think. My gf picked up an SUV though (hatchback room nice, but not needed now) and my commute to work is less than 5 miles. So do I perfect the Sport Touring with light mods in the areas needed? Or do I get an Si and push it further? I could really go either way, only the test drive of the Si will tell.
 


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Great writeup bud!

I'm a HPDE guy and I am curious how the EX would do with some better tires, suspension and brake pads. Momentum cars!
 
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exyia

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Great writeup bud!

I'm a HPDE guy and I am curious how the EX would do with some better tires, suspension and brake pads. Momentum cars!
No problem! Not enough people actually do anything with their cars these days! People need to get out more and actually DRIVE these cars, not argue over spec sheets.
 

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No problem! Not enough people actually do anything with their cars these days! People need to get out more and actually DRIVE these cars, not argue over spec sheets.
Slap some RE71Rs on there, and see it hook!
 
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Slap some RE71Rs on there, and see it hook!
Haha as great as those tires are, I hear terrible things about the daily/comfort traits of the RE71R's :p

Continental had a closeout promo on DW's with $75 rebate card. Evo gets the funds for meaty rubber anyway. Ultimately trying to find a good "eco-priced, sort-of, grand touring car" for fun on road trips where the Evo would get tiresome (or when its broken).

I can say though, the DW's were understeering far before the chassis was at it's limit. Those who think they NEED an LSD before they put on some serious rubber will have me raising an eyebrow. As always - tires > all else.
 

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You can see it happen on mostly the second half of the track starting with the tight left-hander.
It'd be easier to tell if we could at least hear the revs. :D
 


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Haha as great as those tires are, I hear terrible things about the daily/comfort traits of the RE71R's :p

Continental had a closeout promo on DW's with $75 rebate card. Evo gets the funds for meaty rubber anyway. Ultimately trying to find a good "eco-priced, sort-of, grand touring car" for fun on road trips where the Evo would get tiresome (or when its broken).

I can say though, the DW's were understeering far before the chassis was at it's limit. Those who think they NEED an LSD before they put on some serious rubber will have me raising an eyebrow. As always - tires > all else.
I've just started in AutoX, and I've been running on the stock tires. I've found I can keep up with the stock Miatas, but I really find the limits of the tires quick. What tires would you recommend as a compromise performance/daily tire?

I'm considering going up to 18" rims, seems like there are more options with them.
 
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I've just started in AutoX, and I've been running on the stock tires. I've found I can keep up with the stock Miatas, but I really find the limits of the tires quick. What tires would you recommend as a compromise performance/daily tire?

I'm considering going up to 18" rims, seems like there are more options with them.
I stepped down to 17's and didn't really have a problem with availability other than the national championships coming up around the same time that I ordered

Continental DW's, Michelin Pilot Super Sports (they came out with it's successor, but I'd say if these are still out there, they would make for a good starter tire), Hankook RS3 off the top of my head

A hidden gem is actually TireRack's own youtube channel. They don't have many videos, but they do have a few back to back comparisons among tires - so after you've tried one, you can get an idea of which one to try next based on something more aggressive or more comfortable, etc
 

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I stepped down to 17's and didn't really have a problem with availability other than the national championships coming up around the same time that I ordered

Continental DW's, Michelin Pilot Super Sports (they came out with it's successor, but I'd say if these are still out there, they would make for a good starter tire), Hankook RS3 off the top of my head

A hidden gem is actually TireRack's own youtube channel. They don't have many videos, but they do have a few back to back comparisons among tires - so after you've tried one, you can get an idea of which one to try next based on something more aggressive or more comfortable, etc
My own research lead me to the Michelin PSS, but Tire Rack says they aren't available in 17". Am I missing something on the size, or should I just try somewhere else?
 
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exyia

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My own research lead me to the Michelin PSS, but Tire Rack says they aren't available in 17". Am I missing something on the size, or should I just try somewhere else?
I still see them? :\
Honda Civic 10th gen Exyia's Sport Touring Hatchback 9pRFNOJ
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