Perspective on the Civic Si 1.5T engine choice

[procivic]

Is it disappointing that Honda chose the 1.5L engine instead of the 2.0L? Personally for us, the answer is no, but I understand why many of you are upset. I think to get the full take on this situation, you have to really have to consider where the Si model sits in relation to the Type R. Let me explain this a little more from our point of view:

Even though we all love the idea of an inexpensive 2.0L turbo engine that you could tune to a bonkers amount of power, it is just overkill in stock form for the goals of the Si model. If you want a crazy amount of power for your FWD Civic, the Type R will be the car to get. Make no mistake though, compared to previous generous, this Si is definitely going to be a step forward, and with an intake, exhaust, and a tune, I imagine the car will output 260 hp or so at the flywheel. The engine technology Honda is using in these new engines is much much more advanced than previous generations...so you can't be disappointed by the car just due to the engine size alone. For example, the new 1.5L 4 cylinder turbo engine is more capable than the 3.0L V6 200 hp engine from a 1998 to 2002 Honda Accord. I know that is looking a ways back into the past, but it just goes to show how the perception of what a certain engine size can do needs to adjust a lot over time due to technology advances.

If you were to get in the new Si without knowing what size engine was in there you would probably not know it was a 1.5L. Our 174 hp 1.5T manual transmission sedan feels like the previous 2.4L Si to me (we'll have a video review and some tests in the coming weeks). In terms of modification potential, the Si's 1.5L will probably be easily capable of 280 hp while the Type R could be capable of almost 400 hp, assuming both have full bolts-ons and a tune. These are both extremely strong and well built engines that pack a huge punch for their size. V6s and large displacement motors are not where engine technology is progressing, at least with Honda and other forward looking OEMs.

Plus, with the decision to use the 1.5T motor, now you have the lower curb weight, cheaper price, better fuel economy, etc. while still being fast and engaging to drive. I believe this all fits squarely in line with what the Si model is suppose to be in this lineup of Civics. The bottom line it is going to be the most fun to drive Si built to date when compared with all previous stock models. With the high torque #s this is going to feel pretty fast and probably be a lot of fun around a track or AutoX course and with great reliability. If you want a 300+ hp crazy beast of a FWD car, you should be looking at the Type R.

In any case, we'll be getting an Si and having a ton of fun with it. I hope others in the market for this type of car will at least test drive it before making their final decision.

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[sgtmorph]

But do you think 280hp is the ceiling for this 1.5 motor? At what point does usable hp start to degrade lifespan and reliability?

As a former K20Z3 owner myself, it was widely known that you could throw a ton of power at it and it would still last.

-How much boost can you reliably throw at this 1.5 before it starts to eat away at itself?
-We all want to know what separates this Si motor from the rest of the fleet?
-Did they upgrade internals?
-Or did they just throw more boost at it with a more aggressive factory tune?
-Did they make up the power simply by using less restrictive I/E/H?

So many unanswered questions that actual enthusiasts care about. Answers that may result in some turning their back on the car ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[procivic]

Great questions, I wish I knew the answer to those. The Si 1.5T motor could have a VTC + VTEC head like the K20C1 Type R does, and it might have different internals, but again I'm just not sure. The only thing I know is I have heard from very reliable sources that the current 1.5T motor has been "durability" tested at 300 hp. Specifically what that means is up for debate. My take on that is that it means the 1.5T motor has been driven hard for a prolonged time at 300 hp and did not fail or degrade.

 

[Vtak Groceries]

But do you think 280hp is the ceiling for this 1.5 motor? At what point does usable hp start to degrade lifespan and reliability?

As a former K20Z3 owner myself, it was widely known that you could throw a ton of power at it and it would still last.

-How much boost can you reliably throw at this 1.5 before it starts to eat away at itself?
-We all want to know what separates this Si motor from the rest of the fleet?
-Did they upgrade internals?
-Or did they just throw more boost at it with a more aggressive factory tune?
-Did they make up the power simply by using less restrictive I/E/H?

So many unanswered questions that actual enthusiasts care about. Answers that may result in some turning their back on the car ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well for starters, They were able to tune it for 91 octane instead of the 87 octane for the base 174hp 1.5T.

I think it will have the same internals (pistons, rods, crank). Difference will be boost pressure, VTC cams on intake/exhaust, and that will probably be about it... Maybe slightly revised exhaust system. Might have a slightly lower compression ratio.... We will see.

 

[NoelPR]

Well for starters, They were able to tune it for 91 octane instead of the 87 octane for the base 174hp 1.5T.

I think it will have the same internals (pistons, rods, crank). Difference will be boost pressure, VTC cams on intake/exhaust, and that will probably be about it... Maybe slightly revised exhaust system. Might have a slightly lower compression ratio.... We will see.

Dont forget that a bigger turbo is a huge possibily here.
Im very dissapointed. Was expecting a 2.0lt

The only thing that could steer me away pf the Type R is the MSRP. Not willing to pay more than 35K for a FWD civic.
Prefer to keep my current ride that isn't as agile as the TypeR but pulls very hard.

 

[JYR]

As a Honda enthusiast for 25 years, here is my take:

This prototype is just that. It's a prototype. Yes, we will see the 1.5 engine but we no practically nothing about it other than its displacement and it will be turbo. We know nothing of the transmission other than it has a limited slip diff. Honda is an engineering company, first and foremost and they have a known history to do some amazing things with engines. We still don't know what they are doing with the 1.5 for the Si so I am reserving my thoughts until more is known. I do like the adaptive suspension, and the 'larger brakes' that the car will offer.

That said, it was my hope that Honda was setting a new bar within the under $30k sport compact car segment. I don't think they will do that and I think they brought a car that plays in the pack, among a bunch of other proven performers like the ST variants and the GTI. Though they unveiled the car, there still A LOT we don't know about. For that matter, as I understand it, the wheels and some body pieces are HFP options, not original equipment. Realistically speaking, we really don't know what the car even looks like at this point.

I am in need of a replacement vehicle for my VW TDI in the coming 90ish days. I have narrowed it down to a GTI or the new Si. I don't think I will be holding out for the Si. Theres far too much out there in the marketplace that is well seeded and still too much that isn't known about the Si for me to hold my breath.

I'll play with Hondas again in a few years when the R can be found on the used market.

 

[pukemon]

1.5? Smdh.

 

[neteng101]

The only thing I know is I have heard from very reliable sources that the current 1.5T motor has been "durability" tested at 300 hp.

And there's another person that's been around for years on the Net in the Honda scene says Honda tried to hit 220 hp as a target but their engineers told them it couldn't be done for them to still hit their reliability goals. He was also saying Honda would use the 1.5T (not 2.0T) and some people didn't believe him.

So who really knows? 300hp out of a 1.5T is crazy stupid stuff. Do the math.

 

[nabusa]

I think everyone is making too big of a deal about the 1.5L. D series engines are 1.5L-1.6L and people have them turbo'd with over 400whp. K series engines are known to last with over 600whp. Being that this engine is boosted from the factory I can see it making above 300whp. Plus it does come with a LSD which is a big plug.

 

[pukemon]

Yeah but 1.5 and 2.0? I wanted a 2.0 turbo'ed si if I was going to get one. Not it's either type r or stick with my 2014 longer than I wanted.

 

[Design]

Let's be clear. The issue is not the motor.

The issue could very well be the supporting hardware. Namely the turbo. Although official specs have not been released, I am not expecting the configuration of the TD03 to change. Namely due to cost. I believe there will be sufficient headroom to allow a small bump in power, say 10-15%, or a little more in the midrange, without exceeding the efficiency range of a turbo that small. Running at or near the choke point is going to decrease turbo life significantly, IMHO.

Honda's decision to run with the 1.5T was simply due to cost. I believe configuring/detuning the 2.0 would have been far more expensive (but more practical).

I don't intend to come off negative; I expect it will be a fun and engaging car that's competitively priced. And the reviews will praise it for what it is. But hardcore enthusiasts should be looking at the CTR.

 

[Roddy]

The issue is the motor, I didn't want a 3XXhp civic. I think the type R looks Hideous.

I just wanted a well done Si with a 2.0T and I would have been fine with the 220-230hp rating we all expected, I would have been happier with 240hp per se.... and knowing that the 2.0T would have some more head room to make extra power with some tuning.

Now we have the performance derivative of the regular civic sharing the same engine. I'm going to assume it has a slightly different turbo, and will make 210-215hp but its going to have less potential IMO compared to the competition (Focus ST, GTI, Golf R) and it makes me think I could just buy the regular civic coupe which also is a 1.5T and just throw the basics at that and have essentially the same car.

The 1.5T is the disappointment here. No one is bitching about the body lines, the wheels, the paint, the interior or anything else as being a let down.... its Flat Out Clear... the 1.5T is not what the consumer wanted.

 

[Vtak Groceries]

The enthusiast wanted a 2.0T. I think the average guy should still be satisfied with the 1.5T. But it will affect sales for sure. Only true Honda die hards will go for the Si now. The competition is all using 2.0t motors. Hell even the tiny Fiesta St has a 1.6T and the horrible Hyundai Velociter has a 1.6T also lol. Honda screwed up IMO. Going to be really fun getting out performed by a Fiesta St.

Not only does a 1.5T Civic Si suck but it also means we wont have a 1.5T Fit Si.

 

[honduh_ryan]

It's really seeming like people are suffering from displacement envy. Of course everyone wants the bigger engine, but why would honda place a detuned version of their prized type r engine, into the si?

There aren't any specs on the si engine, i wouldn't be suprised if it was just as if not more powerful than the gti, focus st etc.

 

[Vtak Groceries]

It's really seeming like people are suffering from displacement envy. Of course everyone wants the bigger engine, but why would honda place a detuned version of their prized type r engine, into the si?

There aren't any specs on the si engine, i wouldn't be suprised if it was just as if not more powerful than the gti, focus st etc.

It wont be more powerful than any of its competition. The GTI just got a power bump to 220hp and 240hp with performance pack. The Focus St makes 250ish hp. WRX makes 268hp.
Fiesta ST makes 197hp and 201tq and the Hyundai Velositer makes 201hp. So the Civic Si will be right around those cars performance wise.

I am guessing the Civic Si will make 210-215hp with 190-200tq.

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