F1 Talk Anyone?

das borgen

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That's a big problem that he did it for the show. No sport should ever cheapen itself at the cost of integrity (its own established rules).
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jXian

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That's a big problem that he did it for the show. No sport should ever cheapen itself at the cost of integrity (its own established rules).
He didn't break any rules.
 

ATLAC

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He didn't break any rules.
From what I’ve read/seen, the race director can make the call if the lapped cars can pass for the restart but that it should be all the lapped cars and the safety car isn’t supposed to go back into the pits until all lapped cars have passed and then at the end of the next lap the race will restart. Since the call to have the 5 cars overtake Hamilton was lap 57, the SC shouldn’t have gone back to the pits til after lap 58 (per the rules) which was the end of the race. While I might not like the rules, there are rules in sports and they should be adhered to and not changed on the fly


Article 48.12 deals with the situation of having backmarkers unlap themselves.

Initially, Masi had been within his rights to state that 'Lapped Cars will not be allowed to overtake' - which meant Verstappen would be trapped behind five backmarkers before he could get a run on Hamilton.

However, on the penultimate lap, on the run down to Turn 9, Masi sent a message saying that five cars – Lando Norris, Fernando Alonso, Esteban Ocon, Charles Leclerc and Sebastian Vettel could unlap themselves.

The decision to only allow some lapped cars to unlap themselves is unusual as Article 48.12 suggests that the message 'LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE' should be sent to all competitors.

The regulation is then explicit about when the race can be restarted.

It states: "Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.

"If the clerk of the course considers track conditions are unsuitable for overtaking the message "OVERTAKING WILL NOT BE PERMITTED" will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system "

This clause suggests that with the lapped car message having come out on lap 57, then the restart could only come at the end of the 'following lap'- so lap 58, which was the end of the race.

Source: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/what-formula-1s-safety-car-restart-rules-say/6878338/amp/
 
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das borgen

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Yep. All that. He mixed and matched rules to engineer a situation (last lap on green)

That's pretty messed up especially when he originally instructed that lapped cars would not be allowed to unlap themselves
 

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100%. Regardless of who you cheer for, I think we can all agree that Michael only made that decision for the ratings. All I wanted at the start of this season was a good title battle, but we ended up getting one mostly because of FiA fucking around.
Personally, I think the FIA botched the Lap 1 call, and tried to make up for it on the last lap. ??
 


jXian

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From what I’ve read/seen, the race director can make the call if the lapped cars can pass for the restart but that it should be all the lapped cars and the safety car isn’t supposed to go back into the pits until all lapped cars have passed and then at the end of the next lap the race will restart. Since the call to have the 5 cars overtake Hamilton was lap 57, the SC shouldn’t have gone back to the pits til after lap 58 (per the rules) which was the end of the race. While I might not like the rules, there are rules in sports and they should be adhered to and not changed on the fly


Article 48.12 deals with the situation of having backmarkers unlap themselves.

Initially, Masi had been within his rights to state that 'Lapped Cars will not be allowed to overtake' - which meant Verstappen would be trapped behind five backmarkers before he could get a run on Hamilton.

However, on the penultimate lap, on the run down to Turn 9, Masi sent a message saying that five cars – Lando Norris, Fernando Alonso, Esteban Ocon, Charles Leclerc and Sebastian Vettel could unlap themselves.

The decision to only allow some lapped cars to unlap themselves is unusual as Article 48.12 suggests that the message 'LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE' should be sent to all competitors.

The regulation is then explicit about when the race can be restarted.

It states: "Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.

"If the clerk of the course considers track conditions are unsuitable for overtaking the message "OVERTAKING WILL NOT BE PERMITTED" will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system "

This clause suggests that with the lapped car message having come out on lap 57, then the restart could only come at the end of the 'following lap'- so lap 58, which was the end of the race.

Source: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/what-formula-1s-safety-car-restart-rules-say/6878338/amp/
In article 48.8 there is a provision for allowing certain cars to pass the safety car, which is what he did.
 

das borgen

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In article 48.8 there is a provision for allowing certain cars to pass the safety car, which is what he did.
48.12 is literally here exception for 48.8, shown under 48.8, part b
 

jXian

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48.12 is literally here exception for 48.8, shown under 48.8, part b
48.8 a) "If a driver is signaled to do so from the safety car"

Since the safety car can't actually communicate with the drivers, Michael just signals those 5 to pass. Problem solved.

Look, I think it was dumb as well, and I get that you're a huge Merc fan who is sad, but he didn't break any rules. He's just an idiot.
 

das borgen

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Not a Merc fan here. I'm a big Honda fan first and foremost and then a stickler for rules.

They didn't even reference that rule from 48.8 in the stewards decision so I doubt it should be applied here, especially since 48.12 specifies if a driver l, as a lapped car, is signalled past, all of them Must do it
 

jXian

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Not a Merc fan here. I'm a big Honda fan first and foremost and then a stickler for rules.

They didn't even reference that rule from 48.8 in the stewards decision so I doubt it should be applied here, especially since 48.12 specifies if a driver l, as a lapped car, is signalled past, all of them Must do it
So since the stewards decided that 48.13 overrides 48.12, you disagree with that?
 


das borgen

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Not quite, because I think 12 seems like a prerequisite to 13.
 

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In article 48.8 there is a provision for allowing certain cars to pass the safety car, which is what he did.
Apparently, so Massey. ?
 

ATLAC

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From reading the rules and the stewards decision I don’t think Masi saying five cars can pass really falls under 48.8.a. The race director should follow 48.12 in allowing cars to overtake a SC, which to me Masi didn’t really do so. Do I think or want the decision to be overturned, probably not because it would do more harm than good. We can argue whether or not Masi was in his right to do what he did, but as was said and we can all probably agree on that Masi is an idiot. I pasted the official rules so yalll can have some light reading.

48.8 With the exception of the cases listed under a) to h) below, no driver may overtake another car on the track, including the safety car, until he passes the Line (see Article 5.3) for the first time after the safety car has returned to the pits.
The exceptions are:
a) If a driver is signalled to do so from the safety car.
b) Under Articles 41.1c), 48.12, 51.6 and 51.12 below.
c) When entering the pits a driver may pass another car remaining on the track, including the safety car, after he has reached the first safety car line.
d) When leaving the pits a driver may overtake, or be overtaken by, another car on the track before he reaches the second safety car line.
e) When the safety car is returning to the pits it may be overtaken by cars on the track once it has reached the first safety car line.
f) Whilst in the pit entry, pit lane or pit exit a driver may overtake another car which is also in one of these three areas.
g) Any car stopping in its designated garage area whilst the safety car is using the pit lane (see Article 48.11 below) may be overtaken.
h) If any car slows with an obvious problem.
48.9 When ordered to do so by the clerk of the course the observer in the car will use a green light to signal to any cars between it and the leader that they should pass. These cars will continue at reduced speed and without overtaking until they reach the line of cars behind the safety car.
48.10 Except under Article 48.12 below, the safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him.
Once behind the safety car, the leader must keep within ten car lengths of it (except under Article 48.13 below).
48.11 Under certain circumstances the clerk of the course may ask the cars and the safety car to use the pit lane. In these cases, a signal to use the pit lane will be displayed before the start of the pit entry and all Competitors will be informed via the official messaging system, all cars must then enter the pit lane, drive through it and re-join the track. Any car entering the pit lane under these circumstances may however stop at its designated garage area. A penalty under Article 47.3c) will be imposed on any driver who fails to enter the pit lane when required to do so.
Other than when the cars and the safety car are required to use the pit lane, no car may enter the pits whilst the safety car is deployed unless it is for the purpose of changing tyres.
48.12 If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" has been sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.
This will only apply to cars that were lapped at the time they crossed the Line at the end of the lap during which they crossed the first Safety Car line for the second time after the safety car was deployed.
Having overtaken the cars on the lead lap and the safety car these cars should then proceed around the track at an appropriate speed, without overtaking, and make every effort to take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety car. Whilst they are overtaking, and in order to ensure this may be carried out safely, the cars on the lead lap must always stay on the racing line unless deviating from it is unavoidable. Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.
If the clerk of the course considers track conditions are unsuitable for overtaking the message "OVERTAKING WILL NOT BE PERMITTED" will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system.

41.1 Any of the penalties under Articles 47.3a), b), or c) will be imposed on any driver who is judged
to have:
a) Moved before the start signal is given, such judgement being made by an FIA approved
and supplied transponder fitted to each car, or;
b) Positioned his car on the starting grid in such a way that the transponder is unable to detect the moment at which the car first moved from its grid position after the start signal is given, or;
c) the contact patch of the front tyres in front of its grid position before the start signal is given.


51.6 Overtaking behind the safety car is only permitted in the following cases:
a) Any driver who is delayed when leaving his position in the fast lane or during the lap(s) behind the safety car may overtake to re-establish his original starting position provided he does so before he crosses the first safety car line on the lap the safety car returns to the pits. Should he fail to do so he must re-enter the pit lane and may only re-join the race once the whole field has passed the end of the pit lane after the sprint qualifying session
or the race has been resumed.
A penalty under Article 47.3d) will be imposed on any driver who fails to re-enter the pit lane if he has not re-established the original starting order before he reaches the first safety car line on the lap the safety car returns to the pits.
b) Drivers may leave the fast lane in order to overtake any car delayed when leaving its position in the fast lane.


51.12 If track conditions are considered unsuitable to start the sprint qualifying session or the race from a standing start, the message “ROLLING START” will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system, all FIA light panels will display “RS” and the car's orange lights will beextinguished. This will be the signal to the Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.
As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the FIA light panels will be extinguished and a green flag and/or green light panel will be displayed at the Line.
No driver may overtake another car on the track until he passes the Line (see Article 5.3) for the first time after the safety car has returned to the pits.
Each lap completed while the safety car is deployed will be counted as a sprint qualifying session lap or a race lap as appropriate.
 

das borgen

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From reading the rules and the stewards decision I don’t think Masi saying five cars can pass really falls under 48.8.a. The race director should follow 48.12 in allowing cars to overtake a SC, which to me Masi didn’t really do so. Do I think or want the decision to be overturned, probably not because it would do more harm than good. We can argue whether or not Masi was in his right to do what he did, but as was said and we can all probably agree on that Masi is an idiot. I pasted the official rules so yalll can have some light reading.

48.8 With the exception of the cases listed under a) to h) below, no driver may overtake another car on the track, including the safety car, until he passes the Line (see Article 5.3) for the first time after the safety car has returned to the pits.
The exceptions are:
a) If a driver is signalled to do so from the safety car.
b) Under Articles 41.1c), 48.12, 51.6 and 51.12 below.
c) When entering the pits a driver may pass another car remaining on the track, including the safety car, after he has reached the first safety car line.
d) When leaving the pits a driver may overtake, or be overtaken by, another car on the track before he reaches the second safety car line.
e) When the safety car is returning to the pits it may be overtaken by cars on the track once it has reached the first safety car line.
f) Whilst in the pit entry, pit lane or pit exit a driver may overtake another car which is also in one of these three areas.
g) Any car stopping in its designated garage area whilst the safety car is using the pit lane (see Article 48.11 below) may be overtaken.
h) If any car slows with an obvious problem.
48.9 When ordered to do so by the clerk of the course the observer in the car will use a green light to signal to any cars between it and the leader that they should pass. These cars will continue at reduced speed and without overtaking until they reach the line of cars behind the safety car.
48.10 Except under Article 48.12 below, the safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him.
Once behind the safety car, the leader must keep within ten car lengths of it (except under Article 48.13 below).
48.11 Under certain circumstances the clerk of the course may ask the cars and the safety car to use the pit lane. In these cases, a signal to use the pit lane will be displayed before the start of the pit entry and all Competitors will be informed via the official messaging system, all cars must then enter the pit lane, drive through it and re-join the track. Any car entering the pit lane under these circumstances may however stop at its designated garage area. A penalty under Article 47.3c) will be imposed on any driver who fails to enter the pit lane when required to do so.
Other than when the cars and the safety car are required to use the pit lane, no car may enter the pits whilst the safety car is deployed unless it is for the purpose of changing tyres.
48.12 If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" has been sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system, any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.
This will only apply to cars that were lapped at the time they crossed the Line at the end of the lap during which they crossed the first Safety Car line for the second time after the safety car was deployed.
Having overtaken the cars on the lead lap and the safety car these cars should then proceed around the track at an appropriate speed, without overtaking, and make every effort to take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety car. Whilst they are overtaking, and in order to ensure this may be carried out safely, the cars on the lead lap must always stay on the racing line unless deviating from it is unavoidable. Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.
If the clerk of the course considers track conditions are unsuitable for overtaking the message "OVERTAKING WILL NOT BE PERMITTED" will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system.

41.1 Any of the penalties under Articles 47.3a), b), or c) will be imposed on any driver who is judged
to have:
a) Moved before the start signal is given, such judgement being made by an FIA approved
and supplied transponder fitted to each car, or;
b) Positioned his car on the starting grid in such a way that the transponder is unable to detect the moment at which the car first moved from its grid position after the start signal is given, or;
c) the contact patch of the front tyres in front of its grid position before the start signal is given.


51.6 Overtaking behind the safety car is only permitted in the following cases:
a) Any driver who is delayed when leaving his position in the fast lane or during the lap(s) behind the safety car may overtake to re-establish his original starting position provided he does so before he crosses the first safety car line on the lap the safety car returns to the pits. Should he fail to do so he must re-enter the pit lane and may only re-join the race once the whole field has passed the end of the pit lane after the sprint qualifying session
or the race has been resumed.
A penalty under Article 47.3d) will be imposed on any driver who fails to re-enter the pit lane if he has not re-established the original starting order before he reaches the first safety car line on the lap the safety car returns to the pits.
b) Drivers may leave the fast lane in order to overtake any car delayed when leaving its position in the fast lane.


51.12 If track conditions are considered unsuitable to start the sprint qualifying session or the race from a standing start, the message “ROLLING START” will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system, all FIA light panels will display “RS” and the car's orange lights will beextinguished. This will be the signal to the Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.
As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the FIA light panels will be extinguished and a green flag and/or green light panel will be displayed at the Line.
No driver may overtake another car on the track until he passes the Line (see Article 5.3) for the first time after the safety car has returned to the pits.
Each lap completed while the safety car is deployed will be counted as a sprint qualifying session lap or a race lap as appropriate.
The FIA confirms that. They admit they messed up the officiating and Masi made a "human error"

https://www.racefans.net/2022/03/19...-decider-but-states-result-cannot-be-changed/
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