K20C1 Camshaft Testing - Unlocking the RPM, sound, and power we all love in a Honda Racing Engine

[BrokeCTROwner]

The PID needs major work for the XDI Feedback loop. Its very slow. It wont be smart for Hondata to give us that access because then we can run any pump we can fit there.

Because that would be such a terrible thing to do. No idea why they haven’t just given it to us we’ve already paid for the software.

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[turbociv910]

Because that would be such a terrible thing to do. No idea why they haven’t just given it to us we’ve already paid for the software.

Financially speaking, yes it would be. They are a for profit buisiness who makes money on selling their own fuel systems. Making it easy for someone else to slap a big DI pump on there with nothing but a 400$ fuel pump code is drastically undercutting them. Theyve locked the fuel pump market up pretty well so far, i think they intend to keep it that way.

 

[BrokeCTROwner]

Financially speaking, yes it would be. They are a for profit buisiness who makes money on selling their own fuel systems. Making it easy for someone else to slap a big DI pump on there with nothing but a 400$ fuel pump code is drastically undercutting them. Theyve locked the fuel pump market up pretty well so far, i think they intend to keep it that way.

Completely agree. I said this over a year ago when they released their kit. It was honestly a shock to me they even released support for the xdi pump.

 

[4piston]

It will be smart because DI only capability to support well over 800 hp is a Facebook post away from reality for these cars

 

[turbociv910]

It will be smart because DI only capability to support well over 800 hp is a Facebook post away from reality for these cars

for those of us with motec are already able to, post it up!

 

[BrokeCTROwner]

Meanwhile us hondata peasants are stuck with the scraps. I would love to get motec eventually

 

[4piston]

Got the Motec back today thankfully and managed a bit more on pump gas. Biggest notations are that the fuel pump is absolutely 100% in control with no fluctuations whatsoever.....and you can see this in how smooth the graph is. AFR holds absolutely 100% solid and I'm scared to even show what it was prior.

Red - stock ECU, XDI pump, stock injectors, pump gas (remember above we made the same power on the stock fuel system but it was pegged 100% at peak tq and just past peak hp)
Blue - Motec, XDI pump, stock injectors, pump gas
....same boost, timing, IAT, etc.
Fuel Pump Duty dropped 16% with ECU change

Josh wanted to drive it home today, so we pulled some of the low end boost out to soften the torque. We don't want to be picking rods up off the street. 415whp on pump gas feels good. We aren't turning more RPM until we change the valve spring.

To recap.....

2017 CTR
Speedway 92 Octane Pump Gas
Stock Turbo
Stock Block, Head, Valve spring, etc
4P TR2 Drop-In Camshaft
Eventuri Intake
Mishimoto Intercooler
Thermal R&D Exhaust
415whp up from 288 stock

Very happy with the power on pump gas. Well below any knock threshold that we have setup.

 

[fk8mike]

Got the Motec back today thankfully and managed a bit more on pump gas. Biggest notations are that the fuel pump is absolutely 100% in control with no fluctuations whatsoever.....and you can see this in how smooth the graph is. AFR holds absolutely 100% solid and I'm scared to even show what it was prior.

Red - stock ECU, XDI pump, stock injectors, pump gas (remember above we made the same power on the stock fuel system but it was pegged 100% at peak tq and just past peak hp)
Blue - Motec, XDI pump, stock injectors, pump gas
....same boost, timing, IAT, etc.
Fuel Pump Duty dropped 16% with ECU change

Josh wanted to drive it home today, so we pulled some of the low end boost out to soften the torque. We don't want to be picking rods up off the street. 415whp on pump gas feels good. We aren't turning more RPM until we change the valve spring.

To recap.....

2017 CTR
Speedway 92 Octane Pump Gas
Stock Turbo
Stock Block, Head, Valve spring, etc
4P TR2 Drop-In Camshaft
Eventuri Intake
Mishimoto Intercooler
Thermal R&D Exhaust
415whp up from 288 stock

Very happy with the power on pump gas. Well below any knock threshold that we have setup.

nice?

 

[Centripetal]

The PID needs major work for the XDI Feedback loop. Its very slow.(as well as the dinosaur age data logger hondata has) It wont be smart for Hondata to give us that access because then we can run any pump we can fit there.

Do you think the sample rate is slow and/or the gains on the PID are not tuned for the pump?
If it’s the latter, seems totally doable for a hacked version to tune the pump. The traction control is essentially the same thing. Just change traction control to pump IO and PID gains.

 

[gt_fk8]

Got the Motec back today thankfully and managed a bit more on pump gas. Biggest notations are that the fuel pump is absolutely 100% in control with no fluctuations whatsoever.....and you can see this in how smooth the graph is. AFR holds absolutely 100% solid and I'm scared to even show what it was prior.

Red - stock ECU, XDI pump, stock injectors, pump gas (remember above we made the same power on the stock fuel system but it was pegged 100% at peak tq and just past peak hp)
Blue - Motec, XDI pump, stock injectors, pump gas
....same boost, timing, IAT, etc.
Fuel Pump Duty dropped 16% with ECU change

Josh wanted to drive it home today, so we pulled some of the low end boost out to soften the torque. We don't want to be picking rods up off the street. 415whp on pump gas feels good. We aren't turning more RPM until we change the valve spring.

To recap.....

2017 CTR
Speedway 92 Octane Pump Gas
Stock Turbo
Stock Block, Head, Valve spring, etc
4P TR2 Drop-In Camshaft
Eventuri Intake
Mishimoto Intercooler
Thermal R&D Exhaust
415whp up from 288 stock

Very happy with the power on pump gas. Well below any knock threshold that we have setup.

This is a modification I would be keen on.

Question if I were looking at the drop-in camshaft and Motec are we looking at somewhat close ish whp numbers?

 

[4piston]

This is a modification I would be keen on.

Question if I were looking at the drop-in camshaft and Motec are we looking at somewhat close ish whp numbers?

Hondata controlled the camshaft perfectly fine, and we still made over 400whp on pump gas with a stock fuel system. It ran exceptionally well. So consider that as an option.

I'm not pushing or peddling Motec. Just showing the reality.

 

[turbociv910]

Do you think the sample rate is slow and/or the gains on the PID are not tuned for the pump?
If it’s the latter, seems totally doable for a hacked version to tune the pump. The traction control is essentially the same thing. Just change traction control to pump IO and PID gains.

I dont think anyone with a motorspors background would agree the xdi selection is "tuned".. it must where they could get it to "work" and left it. I dont imagine changing the control is very easy to begin with, but they did get the hondata pump a lot closer than xdi's.. Some sample rates are high (camshafts) others are slow.. RPM. I remember reading some where hondata said they had no control over that though.

 

[Centripetal]

I dont think anyone with a motorspors background would agree the xdi selection is "tuned".. it must where they could get it to "work" and left it. I dont imagine changing the control is very easy to begin with, but they did get the hondata pump a lot closer than xdi's.. Some sample rates are high (camshafts) others are slow.. RPM. I remember reading some where hondata said they had no control over that though.

Thanks, this is useful.
I meant tuned in the sense of tuning a PID loop. A loop can be slow to respond if over-damped and/or the sample rate is not frequent enough.

I agree changing the sample rate would be difficult because there are multiple loops. It could easily make things unstable and go boom boom, thud.

I'm cringing writing this but if the sample rate is slow, one could make a piggy back controller with a tighter loop; I did a quick design and it would be $50 but I didn't price out connectors. It doesn't seem worth the effort because I know that people using Cobb (with Bosch ECU) are able to use XDI HPFP (and other manufactures) as a replacement to the OEM HPFP.

 

[seselectronics]

Thanks, this is useful.
I meant tuned in the sense of tuning a PID loop. A loop can be slow to respond if over-damped and/or the sample rate is not frequent enough.

I agree changing the sample rate would be difficult because there are multiple loops. It could easily make things unstable and go boom boom, thud.

I'm cringing writing this but if the sample rate is slow, one could make a piggy back controller with a tighter loop; I did a quick design and it would be $50 but I didn't price out connectors. It doesn't seem worth the effort because I know that people using Cobb (with Bosch ECU) are able to use XDI HPFP (and other manufactures) as a replacement to the OEM HPFP.

That is a great idea , let me know if I need anything.

 

[Centripetal]

That is a great idea , let me know if I need anything.

I digitized my thoughts and design. I'll have to do some calculations but this should be able to be used with many different pumps. It's really just adjusting the pulse delay and width to accommodate for different fuel pump(s). That and tightly closing the loop.

A fairly simple design of instrumentation amplifier(s), microcontroller and FET(s) but it still kind of sucks to have to tap into all these things; it would be easier in the ECU.
I started the schematic capture but nothing worth showing yet. I want to do some failure analysis as well.
Consequently, I was planning on getting an XDI pump anyway but I was holding out because of whispers.

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